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XFilesGeek
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14 Apr 2012, 11:34 am

Declension wrote:
Tomasu wrote:
Wooowwww thank you very much for the lovely proof Declension as I do not believe that I have discovered such a proof of distributivity within the set of natural numbers within the past.


There's books and books and books of this stuff. Full of careful proofs, clever definitions and enlightening theorems. A good place to start is to look at maths articles on Wikipedia to get an idea of the scope of modern mathematics.

Seriously, to anyone reading this, even if you think you hate maths, try getting out an entry-level textbook on group theory or set theory or (my favourite) topology. It might take you a long time to work through it, but there is nothing more satisfying in the world. It sure beats fiction.


No it doesn't.


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14 Apr 2012, 11:57 am

bnky wrote:
You seem to be under the impression that Maths = Logic (?)
Maths involves analysis and interpretation, so just trying to apply rules may not always solve the problem
Not every axiom in Maths is necessarily provable.

NateRiver wrote:
Then someone who is good at maths can say you don't have "common sense."

- how are they showing application of these laws if they call it "common sense"? (Apart from it being highly unlikely that there is indeed a body of knowledge called "common sense" at all.)


I've asked many mathematicians why some people are bad at maths. They said because people don't have common sense, they don't even know the sense of their laws? Just know how to do them.



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14 Apr 2012, 12:31 pm

NateRiver wrote:
bnky wrote:
You seem to be under the impression that Maths = Logic (?)
Maths involves analysis and interpretation, so just trying to apply rules may not always solve the problem
Not every axiom in Maths is necessarily provable.

NateRiver wrote:
Then someone who is good at maths can say you don't have "common sense."

- how are they showing application of these laws if they call it "common sense"? (Apart from it being highly unlikely that there is indeed a body of knowledge called "common sense" at all.)


I've asked many mathematicians why some people are bad at maths. They said because people don't have common sense, they don't even know the sense of their laws? Just know how to do them.


Some people can't comprehend why other people can't see something that they think is "obvious."

I don't get why some people don't get literature. I've found that "literary analysis" follows pretty distinct patterns. It's practically "paint-by-number." And yet, some people just can't latch on.

To each their own.....


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NateRiver
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14 Apr 2012, 12:44 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
NateRiver wrote:
bnky wrote:
You seem to be under the impression that Maths = Logic (?)
Maths involves analysis and interpretation, so just trying to apply rules may not always solve the problem
Not every axiom in Maths is necessarily provable.

NateRiver wrote:
Then someone who is good at maths can say you don't have "common sense."

- how are they showing application of these laws if they call it "common sense"? (Apart from it being highly unlikely that there is indeed a body of knowledge called "common sense" at all.)


I've asked many mathematicians why some people are bad at maths. They said because people don't have common sense, they don't even know the sense of their laws? Just know how to do them.


Some people can't comprehend why other people can't see something that they think is "obvious."

I don't get why some people don't get literature. I've found that "literary analysis" follows pretty distinct patterns. It's practically "paint-by-number." And yet, some people just can't latch on.

To each their own.....



I LOVE LITERATURE. I was reading some pretty advanced stuff when I was in year 6 xD Maths and numbers bore me to death.



Callista
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14 Apr 2012, 12:52 pm

I used to hate math. Then I discovered algebra.

Don't look down on anybody for what they like or don't like, and we'll all be OK. :)


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14 Apr 2012, 12:57 pm

bnky wrote:
School maths is a pretty dumbed down version of higher level maths. They want the largest number of kids to understand things that they have no interest in and will never use again in life.


Totally agree. They just show the kids "what" to do, instead of explaining "why" we do it and "how" it works.

NateRiver, if you want to see the whole picture of math, the logic in it, I agree with what someone else said: you should try reading some university books. I recommend this one:

Elementary Real and Complex Analysis (Dover Books on Mathematics)
http://www.amazon.com/Elementary-Comple ... 595&sr=1-4

It starts off explaining basic arithmetic and goes all the way through calculus. Instead of telling you "1+1=2, believe it or else!" it defines everything and shows how other things are proven to be true based on the definitions. That's the logic in math.

It uses proofs to show things, so you might want to get a book on mathematical proofs if you want to learn how to do them yourself or understand them better.

Interesting that you find physics logical. I studied it in college and did not see much logic in it, but I'm sure that is because of the way it was taught...mostly, anyways.



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14 Apr 2012, 1:04 pm

Math for math's sake is generally boring, math for practical applications is generally interesting.



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14 Apr 2012, 1:09 pm

starkid wrote:
bnky wrote:
School maths is a pretty dumbed down version of higher level maths. They want the largest number of kids to understand things that they have no interest in and will never use again in life.


Totally agree. They just show the kids "what" to do, instead of explaining "why" we do it and "how" it works.

NateRiver, if you want to see the whole picture of math, the logic in it, I agree with what someone else said: you should try reading some university books. I recommend this one:

Elementary Real and Complex Analysis (Dover Books on Mathematics)
http://www.amazon.com/Elementary-Comple ... 595&sr=1-4

It starts off explaining basic arithmetic and goes all the way through calculus. Instead of telling you "1+1=2, believe it or else!" it defines everything and shows how other things are proven to be true based on the definitions. That's the logic in math.

It uses proofs to show things, so you might want to get a book on mathematical proofs if you want to learn how to do them yourself or understand them better.

Interesting that you find physics logical. I studied it in college and did not see much logic in it, but I'm sure that is because of the way it was taught...mostly, anyways.


Physics is beautiful, ever so intriguing. Thanks for the book by the way. I also find it hard to understand questions sometimes and what they're trying to tell me e.t.c Any help on that? Btw, I love physics because it's lovely to know everything you see has a meaning, reasoning, and logic to it. It's truly remarkable and good answer any philosophical inquiry us human beings have had for centuries.

I'm also pretty good at physics. I got the highest mark in my class. We have these things called sets so the highest is set 1 then set 2. We have a terrible physics teacher;however I got at least a B in physics which was great considering most of the class failed. So, yeah^-^" I fail maths though.. I don't know why :/



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14 Apr 2012, 1:17 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
NateRiver wrote:
bnky wrote:
You seem to be under the impression that Maths = Logic (?)
Maths involves analysis and interpretation, so just trying to apply rules may not always solve the problem
Not every axiom in Maths is necessarily provable.

NateRiver wrote:
Then someone who is good at maths can say you don't have "common sense."

- how are they showing application of these laws if they call it "common sense"? (Apart from it being highly unlikely that there is indeed a body of knowledge called "common sense" at all.)


I've asked many mathematicians why some people are bad at maths. They said because people don't have common sense, they don't even know the sense of their laws? Just know how to do them.


Some people can't comprehend why other people can't see something that they think is "obvious."

I don't get why some people don't get literature. I've found that "literary analysis" follows pretty distinct patterns. It's practically "paint-by-number." And yet, some people just can't latch on.

To each their own.....



I LOVE LITERATURE. I was reading some pretty advanced stuff when I was in year 6 xD Maths and numbers bore me to death.



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14 Apr 2012, 1:27 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
NateRiver wrote:
bnky wrote:
You seem to be under the impression that Maths = Logic (?)
Maths involves analysis and interpretation, so just trying to apply rules may not always solve the problem
Not every axiom in Maths is necessarily provable.

NateRiver wrote:
Then someone who is good at maths can say you don't have "common sense."

- how are they showing application of these laws if they call it "common sense"? (Apart from it being highly unlikely that there is indeed a body of knowledge called "common sense" at all.)


I've asked many mathematicians why some people are bad at maths. They said because people don't have common sense, they don't even know the sense of their laws? Just know how to do them.


Some people can't comprehend why other people can't see something that they think is "obvious."

I don't get why some people don't get literature. I've found that "literary analysis" follows pretty distinct patterns. It's practically "paint-by-number." And yet, some people just can't latch on.

To each their own.....



I LOVE LITERATURE. I was reading some pretty advanced stuff when I was in year 6 xD Maths and numbers bore me to death.



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14 Apr 2012, 1:32 pm

NateRiver wrote:
Physics is beautiful, ever so intriguing. Thanks for the book by the way. I also find it hard to understand questions sometimes and what they're trying to tell me e.t.c Any help on that?


Depends somewhat on what you are studying. Is it word problems? One thing I was taught is to write down the given information in one column, then write down exactly what you are supposed to find in another column (maybe write it in words and write the variable too if you have trouble with that). Then write down the equation you need to find the variable. If you have more than one equation that has that variable in it, look at them all and match them with the information you already have. If you are missing some variables to use one of the equations, decide how you can use the given information to find other information. Then go through the steps to solve, and if you don't know the steps, look at an example and write out the steps for yourself, then use those steps again and again until they are memorized. This way takes a little longer, but once you get used to doing it, you can just do it in your head.

Quote:
Btw, I love physics because it's lovely to know everything you see has a meaning, reasoning, and logic to it. It's truly remarkable and good answer any philosophical inquiry us human beings have had for centuries.


Hmm, I don't see that physics gives us a reason for things, just tries to tell us how they work.



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14 Apr 2012, 1:41 pm

starkid wrote:
NateRiver wrote:
Physics is beautiful, ever so intriguing. Thanks for the book by the way. I also find it hard to understand questions sometimes and what they're trying to tell me e.t.c Any help on that?


Depends somewhat on what you are studying. Is it word problems? One thing I was taught is to write down the given information in one column, then write down exactly what you are supposed to find in another column (maybe write it in words and write the variable too if you have trouble with that). Then write down the equation you need to find the variable. If you have more than one equation that has that variable in it, look at them all and match them with the information you already have. If you are missing some variables to use one of the equations, decide how you can use the given information to find other information. Then go through the steps to solve, and if you don't know the steps, look at an example and write out the steps for yourself, then use those steps again and again until they are memorized. This way takes a little longer, but once you get used to doing it, you can just do it in your head.

Quote:
Btw, I love physics because it's lovely to know everything you see has a meaning, reasoning, and logic to it. It's truly remarkable and good answer any philosophical inquiry us human beings have had for centuries.


Hmm, I don't see that physics gives us a reason for things, just tries to tell us how they work.


Well, things like why the sky is blue =) And going into accordance of Newton's Laws. If we were able to measure the size and velocity of every particle in the world, we would be able to tell the state of the universe in the future. I love the reasoning, it's intriguing. Thanks for that method by the way >_< I'll see how that goes.



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14 Apr 2012, 2:24 pm

Declension wrote:
Tomasu wrote:
Wooowwww thank you very much for the lovely proof Declension as I do not believe that I have discovered such a proof of distributivity within the set of natural numbers within the past.


There's books and books and books of this stuff. Full of careful proofs, clever definitions and enlightening theorems. A good place to start is to look at maths articles on Wikipedia to get an idea of the scope of modern mathematics.

Seriously, to anyone reading this, even if you think you hate maths, try getting out an entry-level textbook on group theory or set theory or (my favourite) topology. It might take you a long time to work through it, but there is nothing more satisfying in the world. It sure beats fiction.

EDIT: My proof was slightly wrong, hahaha. I fixed it up a bit. Hopefully you got the idea, though.


^^ Yaye thankees Declension. I believe that I really enjoy studying Mathematics at university, however I am very sorry as I believe that I am not very skilled. ^^ I believe that I really enjoy studying abstact algebra and I believe that my happy project is regarding two particular types of simple groups.

(I am very sorry that I did notice the little mistake within your proof as I believe that this was very silly of me).


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14 Apr 2012, 5:24 pm

NateRiver wrote:


Should I try to look into getting a cognitive assessment to see my problem? I love trigonometry though. I can see the numbers and the shape which makes perfect sense =D I hate Algebra e_e God, KILL ALGEBRA WITH FIRE.


Edit:

Can anyone help me with my problem aswell? Or meh.. Please :cry:


There once was a lad named Nate River,
to whom math was like eating liver.
He didn't get good,
Like he knew he should,
so at 60 he was crying a river.


Well Nate I see it like this... If you're not good at it you can either get better or spend the next 40 years writing posts crying about how math has held you back in life.



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14 Apr 2012, 7:47 pm

UnLoser wrote:
Math for math's sake is generally boring, math for practical applications is generally interesting.


Do you live in Opposite World or something? :)



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14 Apr 2012, 10:33 pm

NateRiver wrote:
Physics is beautiful, ever so intriguing. Thanks for the book by the way. I also find it hard to understand questions sometimes and what they're trying to tell me e.t.c Any help on that? Btw, I love physics because it's lovely to know everything you see has a meaning, reasoning, and logic to it. It's truly remarkable and good answer any philosophical inquiry us human beings have had for centuries.

I'm also pretty good at physics. I got the highest mark in my class. We have these things called sets so the highest is set 1 then set 2. We have a terrible physics teacher;however I got at least a B in physics which was great considering most of the class failed. So, yeah^-^" I fail maths though.. I don't know why :/


I don't see why you'd like and be good at physics if you're bad at math and don't like it. Physics basically IS math, and you can't do physics without a pretty solid grasp of most general mathematical concepts. The only difference is that in physics you're doing, say, integration to determine something tangible, such as the velocity function of a particle. In pure math, you're doing the same integration but just to find a numerical answer which may or may not have any additional meaning. People who go into physics probably use just as much, if not more, math as mathematicians do.

I think you may be over complicating or confusing yourself with math, a lot of people tend to do that.