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TM
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29 Apr 2012, 10:40 am

I find that it's impossible to have a reasonable discussion of how excessively flawed the ideas of communism and socialism are in our time with a bunch of advocates of the flawed ideology interrupting and derailing the threads with their counter-arguments, so in order to make this fun for us anti-marxists, anti-collectivists, anti-communists, anti-socialists I think we need to have a thread where we can expose the flaws of communism without having to deal with those pesky counter-arguments.

Now, whenever someone has attempted to govern by communist principles it ends with lives being lost to authoritarian regimes, with vast black markets, nepotism running wild, a lack of efficiency causing resources to be lost forever, limits any sort of innovation and murders off individual responsibilities.

Communisms basic ideal is "Get what you need and contribute as you can" and the result of this has always been that the "need" outweighs the "contribution" for the population at large and ineffective planning of resource-expenditures and incomes further compound this issue.

There is also no denying that the regimes that maintained their communistic principles over time have always had to change to include more capitalism or have relied heavily on slave labor. Furthermore, any regime that has attempted to govern a country by communist principles has ended up with a questionable human rights record and a tendency to towards authoritarian leadership.

It's condusive to an "the end justifies the means" thinking, meaning that everything is fair to protect the revolution. However, as George Orwell said "You do not establish a dictatorship to protect the revolution, you enact the revolution to establish the dictatorship".

It also requires every single person living under the system to conform to its base doctrine in order to work, since its based on redistribution. If the "need" outweighs the "contribution" the system runs itself into bankruptcy due to always having higher expenditures than incomes. It relies on those who are capable of making larger contributions doing so, while not being adequately compensated or compensated at all for their extra contribution which is against human nature, since reciprocal altruism is the source of social cooperation.

Furthermore, as the "glue" of any community is that each individual gains more by living within the community at the cost of some freedom, communism erodes this in its basic premises.

Note, I don't want any marxists, communists, socialists, social democrat or other collectivist leftists in here with pesky counter arguments, this is a "feelgood" thread for those of us who oppose collectivism and thus having to deal with counter arguments is not something we want to do. We just want to sit in here quietly taking shots at how silly it is to try and use an ideology which requires an abundance of all resources to function to govern when an abundance of all resources is not available.



abacacus
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29 Apr 2012, 12:22 pm

The issue with Communism is incredibly simple, human nature. Humans are, as a whole, greedy bastards. Because of that, any large scale Communist society will crumble.

Simple. It's a shame too, because aside from that (admittedly major) flaw it's actually a great idea.


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29 Apr 2012, 12:57 pm

Communism fails because people like to own things in a communist country everyone is payed the same socialism doesn't work because it is a bad economic practice peopel can not be payed to same to do certin jobs.



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29 Apr 2012, 1:54 pm

Joker wrote:
Communism fails because people like to own things in a communist country everyone is payed the same socialism doesn't work because it is a bad economic practice peopel can not be payed to same to do certin jobs.


You have failed to grasp the difference between Communism and Socialism.

I'll give you a hint: they're dissimilar to the point where I think the OP would rather not discuss the second one in this thread.


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29 Apr 2012, 1:57 pm

Lord_Gareth wrote:
Joker wrote:
Communism fails because people like to own things in a communist country everyone is payed the same socialism doesn't work because it is a bad economic practice peopel can not be payed to same to do certin jobs.


You have failed to grasp the difference between Communism and Socialism.

I'll give you a hint: they're dissimilar to the point where I think the OP would rather not discuss the second one in this thread.


I know the diffrenence sweet heart the soviet union used both communism and socialism which is why they failed as a country both ideas are good in theory bad in practice.



peebo
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29 Apr 2012, 2:09 pm

TM wrote:
It's condusive to an "the end justifies the means" thinking, meaning that everything is fair to protect the revolution. However, as George Orwell said "You do not establish a dictatorship to protect the revolution, you enact the revolution to establish the dictatorship".


not in any way trying to come with a pesky counter argument, just pointing out the irony that the one person you cited in your tirade was also the man who wrote, four years prior to his death:

orwell wrote:
Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it.


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29 Apr 2012, 2:11 pm

Joker wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
Joker wrote:
Communism fails because people like to own things in a communist country everyone is payed the same socialism doesn't work because it is a bad economic practice peopel can not be payed to same to do certin jobs.


You have failed to grasp the difference between Communism and Socialism.

I'll give you a hint: they're dissimilar to the point where I think the OP would rather not discuss the second one in this thread.


I know the diffrenence sweet heart the soviet union used both communism and socialism which is why they failed as a country both ideas are good in theory bad in practice.


Funny, your Socialist neighbour to the North seems to be doing pretty damn well compared to you :wink:


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29 Apr 2012, 2:13 pm

abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
Joker wrote:
Communism fails because people like to own things in a communist country everyone is payed the same socialism doesn't work because it is a bad economic practice peopel can not be payed to same to do certin jobs.


You have failed to grasp the difference between Communism and Socialism.

I'll give you a hint: they're dissimilar to the point where I think the OP would rather not discuss the second one in this thread.


I know the diffrenence sweet heart the soviet union used both communism and socialism which is why they failed as a country both ideas are good in theory bad in practice.


Funny, your Socialist neighbour to the North seems to be doing pretty damn well compared to you :wink:


I like my country when the country is not doing well it is the fault of goverment.



abacacus
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29 Apr 2012, 2:14 pm

Joker wrote:

I like my country when the country is not doing well it is the fault of goverment.


And of course the economic system has nothing to do with the economic collapse you're going through :roll:


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29 Apr 2012, 2:15 pm

Joker wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
Joker wrote:
Communism fails because people like to own things in a communist country everyone is payed the same socialism doesn't work because it is a bad economic practice peopel can not be payed to same to do certin jobs.


You have failed to grasp the difference between Communism and Socialism.

I'll give you a hint: they're dissimilar to the point where I think the OP would rather not discuss the second one in this thread.


I know the diffrenence sweet heart the soviet union used both communism and socialism which is why they failed as a country both ideas are good in theory bad in practice.


Funny, your Socialist neighbour to the North seems to be doing pretty damn well compared to you :wink:


I like my country when the country is not doing well it is the fault of goverment.


The important bit is that various Socialist nations in Europe are doing just freakin' fine, and Denmark in particular is cruisin' along without a care in the world. The evidence would seem to indicate that it's working just fine in practice.


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Joker
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29 Apr 2012, 2:17 pm

Lord_Gareth wrote:
Joker wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
Joker wrote:
Communism fails because people like to own things in a communist country everyone is payed the same socialism doesn't work because it is a bad economic practice peopel can not be payed to same to do certin jobs.


You have failed to grasp the difference between Communism and Socialism.

I'll give you a hint: they're dissimilar to the point where I think the OP would rather not discuss the second one in this thread.


I know the diffrenence sweet heart the soviet union used both communism and socialism which is why they failed as a country both ideas are good in theory bad in practice.


Funny, your Socialist neighbour to the North seems to be doing pretty damn well compared to you :wink:


I like my country when the country is not doing well it is the fault of goverment.


The important bit is that various Socialist nations in Europe are doing just freakin' fine, and Denmark in particular is cruisin' along without a care in the world. The evidence would seem to indicate that it's working just fine in practice.


It would not work in America in other country it does in america we have a Democracy we are never goingn to be a socialist country cause it's not like it played a role in the fall of the USSR right :lol: :roll:



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29 Apr 2012, 2:19 pm

Joker wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
Joker wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:
Joker wrote:
Communism fails because people like to own things in a communist country everyone is payed the same socialism doesn't work because it is a bad economic practice peopel can not be payed to same to do certin jobs.


You have failed to grasp the difference between Communism and Socialism.

I'll give you a hint: they're dissimilar to the point where I think the OP would rather not discuss the second one in this thread.


I know the diffrenence sweet heart the soviet union used both communism and socialism which is why they failed as a country both ideas are good in theory bad in practice.


Funny, your Socialist neighbour to the North seems to be doing pretty damn well compared to you :wink:


I like my country when the country is not doing well it is the fault of goverment.


The important bit is that various Socialist nations in Europe are doing just freakin' fine, and Denmark in particular is cruisin' along without a care in the world. The evidence would seem to indicate that it's working just fine in practice.


It would not work in America in other country it does in america we have a Democracy we are never goingn to be a socialist country cause it's not like it played a role in the fall of the USSR right :lol: :roll:


Socialism and democracy are not incompatible. And by the by, it's comments like this one that lead me to believe that you have no flippin' idea what you're talking about.


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abacacus
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29 Apr 2012, 2:19 pm

Joker wrote:

It would not work in America in other country it does in america we have a Democracy we are never goingn to be a socialist country cause it's not like it played a role in the fall of the USSR right :lol: :roll:


Democracy? What the hell are you going on about? You do realise that democracy and socialism aren't mutually exclusive right? The problem socialism would have in America is that the vast majority of Americans are far too stupid to understand why it works :lol:


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Joker
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29 Apr 2012, 2:22 pm

abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:

It would not work in America in other country it does in america we have a Democracy we are never going to be a socialist country cause it's not like it played a role in the fall of the USSR right :lol: :roll:


Democracy? What the hell are you going on about? You do realise that democracy and socialism aren't mutually exclusive right? The problem socialism would have in America is that the vast majority of Americans are far too stupid to understand why it works :lol:


What does that have to do with what I said socialism has caused the falls of many countries yours will fall how ever mine will not as long as we stay a democracy :wink:



peebo
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29 Apr 2012, 2:28 pm

Joker wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:

It would not work in America in other country it does in america we have a Democracy we are never going to be a socialist country cause it's not like it played a role in the fall of the USSR right :lol: :roll:


Democracy? What the hell are you going on about? You do realise that democracy and socialism aren't mutually exclusive right? The problem socialism would have in America is that the vast majority of Americans are far too stupid to understand why it works :lol:


What does that have to do with what I said socialism has caused the falls of many countries yours will fall how ever mine will not as long as we stay a democracy :wink:


you said socialism would not work in america as you have a democracy. that's what it had to do with what you said. that isn't obvious?


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