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Joker
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29 Apr 2012, 2:31 pm

peebo wrote:
Joker wrote:
abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:

It would not work in America in other country it does in america we have a Democracy we are never going to be a socialist country cause it's not like it played a role in the fall of the USSR right :lol: :roll:


Democracy? What the hell are you going on about? You do realise that democracy and socialism aren't mutually exclusive right? The problem socialism would have in America is that the vast majority of Americans are far too stupid to understand why it works :lol:


What does that have to do with what I said socialism has caused the falls of many countries yours will fall how ever mine will not as long as we stay a democracy :wink:


you said socialism would not work in america as you have a democracy. that's what it had to do with what you said. that isn't obvious?


Hmm I really need to by some dip or some good ale Hence the reason I don't know about socialism is because I have no deisre to learn about it after all I live in america you can't believe what the media tells you plus I often have problems writing down my thoughts at times I have no clue what I am talking about after I post something at least I can admit that though.



Vigilans
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29 Apr 2012, 3:14 pm

I am more against Bolshevism, Stalinism, Leninism, Maoism... basically all the fun "isms" that popped up named after various communist revolutionary leaders... than I am against Marx and many of his ideas himself. Though the evidence for the failure of planned economics is quite apparent. Another thing to consider is that a great deal of the Communist nations that arose were simultaneously making a social, intellectual and economic leap of several hundred years for much of the population. Many of the most repressive policies were aimed at "modernizing" rapidly according to a very strict plan. So in essence they had to create new ideologies to fit with the Marxist "workers paradise". Maoism is a good example, since few Chinese were industrial workers.

We have various socialized services in Canada mixed into a free market economy and it is working quite well. This model seems to be ideal. Though I would like to see cooperative corporation models along the lines of the Basque Mondragon Corporation in more frequency internationally.


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abacacus
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29 Apr 2012, 3:15 pm

...thank you for proving my point about why Socialism wouldn't work in America :lol:

Also, Canada is a democracy. More so than the states. Aren't you a Fascist? That should make you an *enemy* of democracy, seeing how part of fascism is absolute government authority ala WWII Italy or Germany.


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29 Apr 2012, 3:20 pm

abacacus wrote:
...thank you for proving my point about why Socialism wouldn't work in America :lol:


I think the problem is media spin, not necessarily that Americans are stupid (which I do not think). People like Palin talk about how socialized healthcare involves "death panels". I mean wtf are they talking about? Death panels already exist, and many Americans will face them in their lifetime- socialized medicine would remove this, if anything

abacacus wrote:
Also, Canada is a democracy. More so than the states.


...

Our Prime Minister has more power with a majority than any President could ever have. Furthermore if the Conservative Party wanted to they could swap him out for another MP, since it is MPs that are elected


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abacacus
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29 Apr 2012, 3:23 pm

Vigilans wrote:
abacacus wrote:
...thank you for proving my point about why Socialism wouldn't work in America :lol:


I think the problem is media spin, not necessarily that Americans are stupid (which I do not think). People like Palin talk about how socialized healthcare involves "death panels". I mean wtf are they talking about? Death panels already exist, and many Americans will face them in their lifetime- socialized medicine would remove this, if anything

abacacus wrote:
Also, Canada is a democracy. More so than the states.


...

Our Prime Minister has more power with a majority than any President could ever have. Furthermore if the Conservative Party wanted to they could swap him out for another MP, since it is MPs that are elected


Anyone who is going to listen to media spin instead of doing some research for themselves is stupid. Therefore, the vast majority of Americans are stupid.


True, however in America the same conditions (President effectively being able to pass whatever he wants) can also happen if I remember correctly, just not as easily.


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29 Apr 2012, 3:25 pm

I just think communists need to realize that economics don't create the human state. When a person says "Scarcity creates it, then the economy once scarcity goes away" they make a non-falsifiable claim because they are telling you that you can't point to other animals and how they behave, you can't point to any existing form of socialism because - like Sharia - there is no nor has ever been a system that was really practicing 'Marxism', thus all claims that Marxism don't work are false (since its never happened) and that's another claim that is sealed behind a wall and is not permitted to be falsified.

I personally think hyper-abundance one day will make capitalism essentially invisible, you won't be able to tell it from a socialist setting because the difference in what one person can have over another via what they have in their own homes will be incredibly minimal. I do agree that scarcity largely creates evil, then again I'd also argue that human eugenic behavior and listlessness will also. Socialism/Marxism attempted in a system where you have any scarcity means it ends in collective penalty and compression of identity and potential per person.


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TM
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29 Apr 2012, 3:31 pm

peebo wrote:
TM wrote:
It's condusive to an "the end justifies the means" thinking, meaning that everything is fair to protect the revolution. However, as George Orwell said "You do not establish a dictatorship to protect the revolution, you enact the revolution to establish the dictatorship".


not in any way trying to come with a pesky counter argument, just pointing out the irony that the one person you cited in your tirade was also the man who wrote, four years prior to his death:

orwell wrote:
Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it.


Democratic socialism is in essence what you get when you take a capitalist and democratic system then include social welfare programs and increase the role of the state. These states are more capitalist than socialist. Even in the more Social Democratic states in Scandinavia there is a capitalist engine struggling to keep the weight of socialism from sinking the countries. The problems in Europe with state debt are almost a complete result of socialist policies involving public expenditures and loans.



peebo
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29 Apr 2012, 3:54 pm

TM wrote:
peebo wrote:
TM wrote:
It's condusive to an "the end justifies the means" thinking, meaning that everything is fair to protect the revolution. However, as George Orwell said "You do not establish a dictatorship to protect the revolution, you enact the revolution to establish the dictatorship".


not in any way trying to come with a pesky counter argument, just pointing out the irony that the one person you cited in your tirade was also the man who wrote, four years prior to his death:

orwell wrote:
Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it.


Democratic socialism is in essence what you get when you take a capitalist and democratic system then include social welfare programs and increase the role of the state. These states are more capitalist than socialist. Even in the more Social Democratic states in Scandinavia there is a capitalist engine struggling to keep the weight of socialism from sinking the countries. The problems in Europe with state debt are almost a complete result of socialist policies involving public expenditures and loans.


still, this does not mitigate the irony of you citing orwell. he was by no means a proponent of capitalism in any way.

from "why i joined the independent labour party" (1938)

orwell wrote:
For some years past I have managed to make the capitalist class pay me several pounds a week for writing books against capitalism. But I do not delude myself that this state of affairs is going to last forever...


indeed, his special branch file had him down as a communist.


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Last edited by peebo on 30 Apr 2012, 3:28 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Joker
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29 Apr 2012, 4:00 pm

:wink:

abacacus wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
abacacus wrote:
...thank you for proving my point about why Socialism wouldn't work in America :lol:


I think the problem is media spin, not necessarily that Americans are stupid (which I do not think). People like Palin talk about how socialized healthcare involves "death panels". I mean wtf are they talking about? Death panels already exist, and many Americans will face them in their lifetime- socialized medicine would remove this, if anything

abacacus wrote:
Also, Canada is a democracy. More so than the states.


...

Our Prime Minister has more power with a majority than any President could ever have. Furthermore if the Conservative Party wanted to they could swap him out for another MP, since it is MPs that are elected


Anyone who is going to listen to media spin instead of doing some research for themselves is stupid. Therefore, the vast majority of Americans are stupid.


True, however in America the same conditions (President effectively being able to pass whatever he wants) can also happen if I remember correctly, just not as easily.


If the vast majority of America is stupid then why do we always kick your butt at sports :wink:



TM
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29 Apr 2012, 4:21 pm

peebo wrote:
TM wrote:
peebo wrote:
TM wrote:
It's condusive to an "the end justifies the means" thinking, meaning that everything is fair to protect the revolution. However, as George Orwell said "You do not establish a dictatorship to protect the revolution, you enact the revolution to establish the dictatorship".


not in any way trying to come with a pesky counter argument, just pointing out the irony that the one person you cited in your tirade was also the man who wrote, four years prior to his death:

orwell wrote:
Every line of serious work that I have written since 1936 has been written, directly or indirectly, against totalitarianism and for democratic socialism, as I understand it.


Democratic socialism is in essence what you get when you take a capitalist and democratic system then include social welfare programs and increase the role of the state. These states are more capitalist than socialist. Even in the more Social Democratic states in Scandinavia there is a capitalist engine struggling to keep the weight of socialism from sinking the countries. The problems in Europe with state debt are almost a complete result of socialist policies involving public expenditures and loans.


still, this does not mitigate the irony of you citing orwell. he was by no means a proponent of capitalism in any way.

from "why i joined the independent labour party" (1938)

[quote"orwell"]For some years past I have managed to make the capitalist class pay me several pounds a week for writing books against capitalism. But I do not delude myself that this state of affairs is going to last forever...


indeed, his special branch file had him down as a communist.[/quote]

I wasn't really quoting him as defending capitalism either but as being against totalitarianism most of which has stemmed from socialism in modern times.

I also quite admire Marx for his intelligence and insight in coming up with the "end of the existence" ideology, however I've been shocked with how stupid his followers are thinking that such an ideology should ever be implemented until one has reached an "end of existence". Now, misunderstand me correctly here, what I'm saying is that once we've reached a level where everyone could have "The Lifestyles of the Rich and Famous" then socialism is the perfect ideology. However, as long as we haven't reached that level the choice is between socialism as in "everyone is poor" and "capitalism" some are rich and some are poor. I see the latter as the lesser of two evils.



Last edited by TM on 29 Apr 2012, 4:42 pm, edited 1 time in total.

abacacus
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29 Apr 2012, 4:34 pm

Joker wrote:
If the vast majority of America is stupid then why do we always kick your butt at sports :wink:


Doesn't take that much brain power to play football :wink:

And note I said majority, not all.


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29 Apr 2012, 5:25 pm

Unlike all of the people who went and derailed the "Calling All Marxists" thread, I will be polite. Other than this I will not post here. Well, and to say that Vigilans is correct about the Canadian PM with a majority government has more power than any American president. It is sometimes described as an "elected dictatorship."



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29 Apr 2012, 6:17 pm

Lord_Gareth wrote:

The important bit is that various Socialist nations in Europe are doing just freakin' fine, and Denmark in particular is cruisin' along without a care in the world. The evidence would seem to indicate that it's working just fine in practice.


With a small culturally homogenous population.

ruveyn



TM
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29 Apr 2012, 6:29 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Lord_Gareth wrote:

The important bit is that various Socialist nations in Europe are doing just freakin' fine, and Denmark in particular is cruisin' along without a care in the world. The evidence would seem to indicate that it's working just fine in practice.


With a small culturally homogenous population.

ruveyn


And with a capitalist engine keeping the whole thing afloat. What it comes down to is that capitalism is innately too harsh for most people's tastes. They're fine with the "win and lose" bit so long as they cannot really loose too much. IE they prefer all upside and little downside, which ironically makes them like investors.

Certain aspects of socialism (welfare programs, programs for people who lost their jobs, health care) are adopted to mitigate the downside risk those people face. However, it also makes them unable to realize that life is risk vs reward, if you do not take risks you rarely get a large reward. You may get a small to medium size reward (lower middle to higher middle class) but you'll never get above that.



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29 Apr 2012, 7:36 pm

abacacus wrote:
Joker wrote:
If the vast majority of America is stupid then why do we always kick your butt at sports :wink:


Doesn't take that much brain power to play football :wink:

And note I said majority, not all.


It takes more brian power then you think all sports take brian power to play and to play them well :wink: