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ruveyn
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01 May 2012, 8:16 pm

marshall wrote:

The problem now is that the developed world is going to go bankrupt because our workers are not willing to compete with the brutal "old school" capitalism which still exists in the developing world. Of course if workers of the first world are forced to compete with the third world we'll become third world as well and the corporations depending on us for being their consumer base will then have nobody to do business with. Hmmm... Sounds like unmitigated self-interest and exploitation on the part of global capitalists is in the long run bad for capitalism itself. A lot of capitalists realize this themselves and have thus decided it is in their own best interest collectively to pay workers enough to have a thriving middle class. Of course, they also realize they don't have to pay people a living wage in developed countries where the government provides assistance to people whose income is insufficient.


You are aware, I assume, the capitalists invest their money in order to realize a profit (or return on capital invested) in the long run. They do not invest their money to provide jobs for the Proles. They hire Proles in order to make stuff that they (the capitalists) sell at a profit. So keep on mind what the objective is.

You think businesses ought to be run so people can have jobs. Not so. People have jobs so businesses can be run. If we had a race of clever monkeys who could do what the Proles do, the owners would use the clever Monkeys and only provide food and shelter for them.

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NeantHumain
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01 May 2012, 11:30 pm

abacacus wrote:
If you like a pure Capatalist system so much, why not move to one? Somalia would be perfect for you.

I don't know where this meme came from, but Somalia is not a capitalist society. Nor is Somalia a libertarian society.

Capitalism has prerequisites like a functioning civil society, a base level of social trust to facilitate trade, and a tradition of entrepreneurship and the work ethic.



ruveyn
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02 May 2012, 10:24 am

To those who think Somalia is an example of capital;ism consider this: Capitalism requires law and order, particularly laws concerning the ownership and transfer of property. Capitalistic systems are thick with lawyers and law courts. Somalia is a lawless anarchistic place, not a capitalist place.

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abacacus
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02 May 2012, 11:24 am

NeantHumain wrote:
abacacus wrote:
If you like a pure Capatalist system so much, why not move to one? Somalia would be perfect for you.

I don't know where this meme came from, but Somalia is not a capitalist society. Nor is Somalia a libertarian society.

Capitalism has prerequisites like a functioning civil society, a base level of social trust to facilitate trade, and a tradition of entrepreneurship and the work ethic.


Actually Capitalism does *not* require those things. That's the base of a functioning society. Capitalism isn't about society in the least, it's about gathering as much power and wealth and possible. Your average third world country being ravaged by corporations and full of sweat shops is a PERFECT example of Capitalism.


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ruveyn
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02 May 2012, 12:28 pm

abacacus wrote:

Actually Capitalism does *not* require those things. That's the base of a functioning society. Capitalism isn't about society in the least, it's about gathering as much power and wealth and possible. Your average third world country being ravaged by corporations and full of sweat shops is a PERFECT example of Capitalism.


Capitalism is about forming private firms from privately provided capital.

All functioning capitalist societies have laws pertaining to property, contracts and safety. The Hell Hole African nations are not capitalist at all. They are privately run thugocracies. Unfortunately many private firms (some of them U.S. firms) do business with them.

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marshall
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02 May 2012, 12:51 pm

ruveyn wrote:
marshall wrote:

The problem now is that the developed world is going to go bankrupt because our workers are not willing to compete with the brutal "old school" capitalism which still exists in the developing world. Of course if workers of the first world are forced to compete with the third world we'll become third world as well and the corporations depending on us for being their consumer base will then have nobody to do business with. Hmmm... Sounds like unmitigated self-interest and exploitation on the part of global capitalists is in the long run bad for capitalism itself. A lot of capitalists realize this themselves and have thus decided it is in their own best interest collectively to pay workers enough to have a thriving middle class. Of course, they also realize they don't have to pay people a living wage in developed countries where the government provides assistance to people whose income is insufficient.


You are aware, I assume, the capitalists invest their money in order to realize a profit (or return on capital invested) in the long run. They do not invest their money to provide jobs for the Proles. They hire Proles in order to make stuff that they (the capitalists) sell at a profit. So keep on mind what the objective is.

You think businesses ought to be run so people can have jobs. Not so. People have jobs so businesses can be run. If we had a race of clever monkeys who could do what the Proles do, the owners would use the clever Monkeys and only provide food and shelter for them.

ruveyn

ruveyn


But if there's no middle class left to buy any of their fancy stuff they can't make a profit anymore. Then the captains of industry are not so smart after all. For the post three decades they've relied on temporary asset bubbles and the consumer populous going increasingly into debt. Before the crisis it was so out of whack that even more than individual debt, entire financial institutions were "leveraged" way beyond their actual means. Then when it all came crashing down the resulting rot was shoveled onto the doorstep of governments who then had no choice but to balance their budgets by cutting services and pushing their economies further into turmoil. What's happening with the Euro is just the beginning.

Really, if capitalists want to hire clever monkeys and to f**k with the rest, who the hell is going to be able to buy their s**t? I think capitalists are actually pretty keen on having welfare states. That way people can still buy their stuff without them having to hire them or pay them an honest wage because everyone can be on government assistance. That is as long as said governments don't tax the capitalists too much. Never allow that. Just keep the profits going by offloading all the debt on the governments, then blame the governments for being "irresponsible spenders" through right-wing propaganda outlets.



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02 May 2012, 1:51 pm

ruveyn wrote:
abacacus wrote:

Actually Capitalism does *not* require those things. That's the base of a functioning society. Capitalism isn't about society in the least, it's about gathering as much power and wealth and possible. Your average third world country being ravaged by corporations and full of sweat shops is a PERFECT example of Capitalism.


Capitalism is about forming private firms from privately provided capital.

All functioning capitalist societies have laws pertaining to property, contracts and safety. The Hell Hole African nations are not capitalist at all. They are privately run thugocracies. Unfortunately many private firms (some of them U.S. firms) do business with them.

ruveyn


Hell hole nations aren't Capitalist eh? So despite the fact that it's ALL about the corporations and their needs (private capital and private firms) it can't be called Capitalist? Get yer head out of yer arse and look around man. Those countries are a Capitalists dream, what with the lack of pesky and expensive regulations, workers rights, etc. Yank the halo off your ideal and look at reality.


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02 May 2012, 2:12 pm

Marxist Economics is summed-up by V.I. Lenin as follows, “Communist society means that everything—the land, the factories—is owned in common. Communism means working in common.” Which is hard to believe most people living in communist countries are forced to work against their will.