The reason why healthy food doesn't taste good

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auntblabby
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04 May 2012, 4:09 pm

raw carrots taste like acrid hell. plain yogurt tastes like sour hell. green olives taste like metallically sour salty hell.



Kurgan
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04 May 2012, 4:18 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
What's the point of this thread? First of all, humans are programmed to Like food that tastes sweet. Secondly, humans are (usually) programmed to like meat, eggs and so on because we need more proteins than other apes.

A lot of unhealthy foods (eg. wheat) has very little taste.


Protein =/= meat and eggs.

It's virtually-impossible to be protein-deficient without also being calorically deficient.


It is indeed possible. To actually get decent results in terms of muscle gain, you need at least 1,8 metric grams of protein per kg of your own bodyweight. You average bread and butter diet gives you roughly 50 grams of protein per day.

If I were to get my daily need in protein simply by eating vegetables, I'd have to eat 5000-6000 calories a day and spend close to 100 USD on food every day. Furthermore, my cholesterol levels would be too low.

Fail.
A little over two cups of TVP is a HUNDRED grams of protein. Around 200 calories. I'm not sure why you think X amount of protein necessitates eating X number of calories. TVP is dirt cheap. I just got a canteloupe-sized ball of the stuff, around ten cups of it, for a dollar something at Whole Foods. My cholesterol's "amazing" (doctor's word). What gives?


TVP is expensive here in Norway and the manufacturing process decreases the protein quality. You can get it quite cheaply because the USA is the world's largest producer of soybeans, whereas it needs to be imported here because of the climate.

Furthermore, the estrogen level in soy is very high. One cup of TVP is 320 calories and 48 grams of protein. This is twice the calorie amount of tuna and only five grams or so more worth of protein.

Men need more cholesterol than women; this is what testosterone is derived from.



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04 May 2012, 4:22 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Gravechylde wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Fail.
A little over two cups of TVP is a HUNDRED grams of protein. Around 200 calories. I'm not sure why you think X amount of protein necessitates eating X number of calories. TVP is dirt cheap. I just got a canteloupe-sized ball of the stuff, around ten cups of it, for a dollar something at Whole Foods. My cholesterol's "amazing" (doctor's word). What gives?

Protein is 4 calories per gram, how can you get 100g with only 200 calories?


Because different protein types have different caloric amounts. :)

Let's say it IS 4 calories a gram. So then it's 400 calories. Not "5,000-6,000".


First of all, nothing contains 100% protein. Secondly, I need at least 160 grams of protein a day (and for safety's sake, I usually go a little higher).



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04 May 2012, 9:56 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Right, I see that now- the one in the store might have been wrong, or I misread.
In any case, as you can see, it provides about a quarter of the recommended daily protein.
Calories can either come from fat, protein, or carbs. If you're doing the low-carb thing, that leaves the other two.
A snack-sized amount of nuts packs a ton of calories.
Veganism isn't a welfarist philosphy, so "humanely-treated" doesn't have much to do with it.

I'm not saying that having humanely treated makes me more like a vegan, but it does eliminate the negative effects of meat in terms of health. And too much protein does have it's own issues. Ideally what I'd like to be eating in terms of macro nutrients is enough protein to maintain and build muscle tissue, enough carbs for vitamins/minerals/fiber, and fat for brain/hair/skin/nail health. Then make up the rest of the calories i need from either fat or carbs, which for me would probably be fat.


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ValentineWiggin
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04 May 2012, 11:09 pm

Kurgan wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
What's the point of this thread? First of all, humans are programmed to Like food that tastes sweet. Secondly, humans are (usually) programmed to like meat, eggs and so on because we need more proteins than other apes.

A lot of unhealthy foods (eg. wheat) has very little taste.


Protein =/= meat and eggs.

It's virtually-impossible to be protein-deficient without also being calorically deficient.


It is indeed possible. To actually get decent results in terms of muscle gain, you need at least 1,8 metric grams of protein per kg of your own bodyweight. You average bread and butter diet gives you roughly 50 grams of protein per day.

If I were to get my daily need in protein simply by eating vegetables, I'd have to eat 5000-6000 calories a day and spend close to 100 USD on food every day. Furthermore, my cholesterol levels would be too low.

Fail.
A little over two cups of TVP is a HUNDRED grams of protein. Around 200 calories. I'm not sure why you think X amount of protein necessitates eating X number of calories. TVP is dirt cheap. I just got a canteloupe-sized ball of the stuff, around ten cups of it, for a dollar something at Whole Foods. My cholesterol's "amazing" (doctor's word). What gives?


TVP is expensive here in Norway and the manufacturing process decreases the protein quality. You can get it quite cheaply because the USA is the world's largest producer of soybeans, whereas it needs to be imported here because of the climate.

Furthermore, the estrogen level in soy is very high. One cup of TVP is 320 calories and 48 grams of protein. This is twice the calorie amount of tuna and only five grams or so more worth of protein.

Men need more cholesterol than women; this is what testosterone is derived from.


...but not "5,000-6,000", and without the environmental or ethical questions of tuna. :lol:


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ValentineWiggin
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04 May 2012, 11:10 pm

Gravechylde wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Right, I see that now- the one in the store might have been wrong, or I misread.
In any case, as you can see, it provides about a quarter of the recommended daily protein.
Calories can either come from fat, protein, or carbs. If you're doing the low-carb thing, that leaves the other two.
A snack-sized amount of nuts packs a ton of calories.
Veganism isn't a welfarist philosphy, so "humanely-treated" doesn't have much to do with it.

I'm not saying that having humanely treated makes me more like a vegan, but it does eliminate the negative effects of meat in terms of health.


Uh...what?


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04 May 2012, 11:28 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Gravechylde wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Right, I see that now- the one in the store might have been wrong, or I misread.
In any case, as you can see, it provides about a quarter of the recommended daily protein.
Calories can either come from fat, protein, or carbs. If you're doing the low-carb thing, that leaves the other two.
A snack-sized amount of nuts packs a ton of calories.
Veganism isn't a welfarist philosphy, so "humanely-treated" doesn't have much to do with it.

I'm not saying that having humanely treated makes me more like a vegan, but it does eliminate the negative effects of meat in terms of health.


Uh...what?

It doesn't have drugs, hormones, they're not standing in piles of their own poop and the animals are eating the food they are supposed to be eating (grass instead of grains for cows), meaning they get the nutrients their bodies are meant to be getting, which will make their flesh healthy to eat.


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VIDEODROME
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04 May 2012, 11:34 pm

Full of Monsanto goodness like GMOs and pesticides?

yum.



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05 May 2012, 5:56 am

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
What's the point of this thread? First of all, humans are programmed to Like food that tastes sweet. Secondly, humans are (usually) programmed to like meat, eggs and so on because we need more proteins than other apes.

A lot of unhealthy foods (eg. wheat) has very little taste.


Protein =/= meat and eggs.

It's virtually-impossible to be protein-deficient without also being calorically deficient.


It is indeed possible. To actually get decent results in terms of muscle gain, you need at least 1,8 metric grams of protein per kg of your own bodyweight. You average bread and butter diet gives you roughly 50 grams of protein per day.

If I were to get my daily need in protein simply by eating vegetables, I'd have to eat 5000-6000 calories a day and spend close to 100 USD on food every day. Furthermore, my cholesterol levels would be too low.

Fail.
A little over two cups of TVP is a HUNDRED grams of protein. Around 200 calories. I'm not sure why you think X amount of protein necessitates eating X number of calories. TVP is dirt cheap. I just got a canteloupe-sized ball of the stuff, around ten cups of it, for a dollar something at Whole Foods. My cholesterol's "amazing" (doctor's word). What gives?


TVP is expensive here in Norway and the manufacturing process decreases the protein quality. You can get it quite cheaply because the USA is the world's largest producer of soybeans, whereas it needs to be imported here because of the climate.

Furthermore, the estrogen level in soy is very high. One cup of TVP is 320 calories and 48 grams of protein. This is twice the calorie amount of tuna and only five grams or so more worth of protein.

Men need more cholesterol than women; this is what testosterone is derived from.


...but not "5,000-6,000", and without the environmental or ethical questions of tuna. :lol:


If I were to supplement it with carrots, fruit, olives and so on, it would probably be around 6,000 calories.

Furthermore, the tuna fish I buy is caught with equipmemt that doesn't harm dolphins. ;) If you buy tuna, make sure it's from Thailand and not the pacific ocean, though. You should also make sure it's skipjack tuna—this is caught using methods that do not harm birds as well.



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05 Jun 2012, 7:56 am

I think it is because we are evolutionarily programmed for mortality. I saw a thing where a guy was trying to prolong his life in order to be with his children, grandchildren, etc. as long as he could. He was eating some extremely rigid vegan diet and taking all these supplements, etc.. One of the side-effects, the report said, was that he'd lost his sex drive. That got me thinking. If people lived that long, they wouldn't need much of a sex drive because they wouldn't need to reproduce that much.



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06 Jun 2012, 12:01 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
What's the point of this thread? First of all, humans are programmed to Like food that tastes sweet. Secondly, humans are (usually) programmed to like meat, eggs and so on because we need more proteins than other apes.

A lot of unhealthy foods (eg. wheat) has very little taste.


Protein =/= meat and eggs.

It's virtually-impossible to be protein-deficient without also being calorically deficient.


It is indeed possible. To actually get decent results in terms of muscle gain, you need at least 1,8 metric grams of protein per kg of your own bodyweight. You average bread and butter diet gives you roughly 50 grams of protein per day.

If I were to get my daily need in protein simply by eating vegetables, I'd have to eat 5000-6000 calories a day and spend close to 100 USD on food every day. Furthermore, my cholesterol levels would be too low.

Fail.
A little over two cups of TVP is a HUNDRED grams of protein. Around 200 calories. I'm not sure why you think X amount of protein necessitates eating X number of calories. TVP is dirt cheap. I just got a canteloupe-sized ball of the stuff, around ten cups of it, for a dollar something at Whole Foods. My cholesterol's "amazing" (doctor's word). What gives?


TVP is expensive here in Norway and the manufacturing process decreases the protein quality. You can get it quite cheaply because the USA is the world's largest producer of soybeans, whereas it needs to be imported here because of the climate.

Furthermore, the estrogen level in soy is very high. One cup of TVP is 320 calories and 48 grams of protein. This is twice the calorie amount of tuna and only five grams or so more worth of protein.

Men need more cholesterol than women; this is what testosterone is derived from.


...but not "5,000-6,000", and without the environmental or ethical questions of tuna. :lol:


From a pragmatic perspective, if you're trying to eat natural and healthy while still getting between 150 - 200 grams of protein per day (roughly 2g per kilo bodyweight) you have to include trace calories as well. For instance, if you eat an egg, you get protein and you get fat, if you eat meat, you get protein plus fat, even if you were to take it in from pure whey protein, my brand of protein is roughly 120 chal per 35g serving of protein, which totals about 5.7 servings, which is a total of about 680 calories. That still leaves me short of getting my omega 3, iron, the fat I need to consume to ensure that a majority of my protein intake goes towards building muscle as opposed to being burned for energy.

Nuts work, but they tend to include trace carbs, and I need to keep my carb intake under 50g per day, and restricted to pre and post workout nutrition for max effect. So, my daily carb allowance tends to go towards either blueberries or some other form of natural fast-acting carbohydrate which gives me enough sugar in my muscles to get a good workout and adequate post workout recovery as opposed to a means of getting enough calories.

Men who weight train, should ideally get 2g of protein per kilo of body weight, in addition to the caloric needs of their body for lets call them "activity purposes". I don't know how Kurgan trains, but in my case it is 4 - 5 times per week, for 45 minutes to an hour not including cardio. This means that the daily calorie requirement would be about 3500 + protein, and 20 - 50% more during a bulking phase.

http://www.bobsredmill.com/tvp-textured ... otein.html contains 80 calories per 12g of protein, so to get 200g you would be eating 16.6 servings per day, for a total of 1328 calories. I'd also be getting 7g of carbohydrates per serving, for a total of 116g of carbs per day. Plus, I'd be getting 8964mg of potassium per day, which is well beyond any recommendation for a healthy lifestyle.



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06 Jun 2012, 11:05 pm

I personally find most healthy food tastes much better than unhealthy foods. Healthy foods are generally more expensive though. For example, I'd much rather have a grilled/roasted chicken or a pan seared catfish with steamed vegetables any day, than a bucket of fried chicken or a fried catfish basket with fries.



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08 Jun 2012, 8:44 pm

Kurgan wrote:
Furthermore, the tuna fish I buy is caught with equipmemt that doesn't harm dolphins. ;) If you buy tuna, make sure it's from Thailand and not the pacific ocean, though. You should also make sure it's skipjack tuna—this is caught using methods that do not harm birds as well.


i think the issue is one of overfishing. i think at the moment yellow fin is endangered/overfished but most caught tuna is not yellowfin i think. the others are likely close to being overfished. I want to become a vegitarian but done so yet



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12 Jun 2012, 1:23 pm

Roman wrote:
Have you ever wondered why what tastes good is often not healthy despite the fact that from evolutionary point of view the whole purpose of taste is to get you to eat what is healthy? I found an interesting explanation that probably none of you have thought of. On a grand scheme of things, what tastes better IS healthier:

1. Salad tastes better than dirt, and salad is healthier than dirt
2. Cookies also taste better than dirt and they, too, are healthier than dirt

Now, since the VAST MAJORITY of food available is dirt, ON A GRAND SCHEME OF THINGS the healthy things DO taste better than unhealthy ones. The problem is that correlation is not perfect. So one small "imperfection" in correlation is

3. Cookies taste better than salad BUT salad is healthier than cookies

Now, item 3 is VERY SMALL compared to 1 and 2. Just think about it: it is A LOT more unpleasant to eat dirt than any unpleasantness one would have eating salad. And it is A LOT worse to your health to eat dirt than it would be eating cookies,

But as "small" imperfection as it might be, the "imperfection" is all you are going to pay attention to. After all, since dirt is neither healthy nor tastes good, the dirt simply would never enter your mind. In order for item X to enter your mind, item X has to EITHER be healthy OR taste good or both. And here is what makes healthy food taste bad:

4. If item X is healthy (e.g. salad), it has a "qualification" to "enter human consideration" DESPITE bad taste
5. If item X tastes good (e.g. cookie) it has a "qualification" to "enter human consideration" DESPITE being unhealthy

This, together with the fact that

6. Most things taste bad and most things are unhealthy
7. Most things (e.g. dirt) never enters human consideration
8. The pattern exemplified by 1 and 2 is not perfect

provides an excellent statistical explanation why healthy things taste bad and unhealthy things taste good.

Lets put it this way: items 4 and 7 imply that

4, 7 ==> If an item X tastes bad and it enters human consideration, it MUST be healthy

Items 5 and 7 on the other hand imply that

5, 7 ==> If an item X is unhealthy and it enters human consideration, it MUST taste good

Finally, item 6 imply that

6 ==> Things that are BOTH healthy AND taste good are EVEN LESS common than things that are ONLY one OR the other (I mean, two "rare" things co-existing at the same time is even more rare)

(4, 7 ==>), (5, 7 ==>) and (6 ==>) above imply that AMONG THINGS THAT ENTER HUMAN CONSIDERATION there is "opposite correlation" between being healthy and tasting good

It's because humans are hard wired toward three distinct flavors:
1. Sweet
2. Salty
3. the flavor of fat

These flavors, unfortunately, are associated with unhealthy foods like sugar, table salt and fat, of course! It's so weird that humans are so attracted to these flavors that do not occur naturally that much in their surroundings, except maybe if they live near an ocean or source of salt. If they are growing wheat or barley, not much flavor there. Not much in many wild berries, leaves and roots, either. Meat, of course, has fat, but it's mostly the big game that has a lot and humans long ago relied on fish and small game more. So why did humans evolve to be so attracted to these flavors?



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12 Jun 2012, 1:36 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:

It's because humans are hard wired toward three distinct flavors:
1. Sweet
2. Salty
3. the flavor of fat

These flavors, unfortunately, are associated with unhealthy foods like sugar, table salt and fat, of course! It's so weird that humans are so attracted to these flavors that do not occur naturally that much in their surroundings, except maybe if they live near an ocean or source of salt. If they are growing wheat or barley, not much flavor there. Not much in many wild berries, leaves and roots, either. Meat, of course, has fat, but it's mostly the big game that has a lot and humans long ago relied on fish and small game more. So why did humans evolve to be so attracted to these flavors?


Maybe because in the past these things were so rare that you ate what you could when you found it but now we generally have access to whatever we want whenever we want but we still have an unneeded urge to gorge on it?