Five men face dissident republican charges

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Joker
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18 May 2012, 9:50 pm

Tequila wrote:
Declension wrote:
It's the other way around. If not for groups like the IRA, the idea of a united Ireland would be much more inconceivable than it currently is.


Increasingly, that's not the case though - more and more Catholics are comfortable with the Union as-is, and I can only see that continuing.

And if you take that argument, you must logically then accept that Carson's Ulster Volunteers is a much better example than the IRA.


I agree with the second part.



Tequila
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18 May 2012, 9:51 pm

Joker wrote:
I agree with the second part.


The Covenant Centenary celebrations are happening in Belfast this September - get your Union Jacks early!



Declension
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18 May 2012, 9:58 pm

Tequila wrote:
more and more Catholics are comfortable with the Union as-is


And why is this? It's because the Union does not represent injustice and oppression as much as it used to. Why is this? It's because policies toward Ireland have changed. Why is this? Because of groups like the IRA.



Joker
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18 May 2012, 10:03 pm

Declension wrote:
Tequila wrote:
more and more Catholics are comfortable with the Union as-is


And why is this? It's because the Union does not represent injustice and oppression as much as it used to. Why is this? It's because policies toward Ireland have changed. Why is this? Because of groups like the IRA.


I can't bloody stand the unions or any union for that matter.



Tequila
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18 May 2012, 10:11 pm

Declension wrote:
Why is this? Because of groups like the IRA.


Civil rights reforms were already starting to happen by the end of the 1960s/early 1970s. By the mid-1970s all the discriminatory elements of the old Northern Irish state had been swept away.

Now, why did the IRA carry on murdering people for another twenty years? I would argue that the IRA did in fact bring little but trouble, hatred, death and misery to many, many people.

To top things off: they lost, too. Northern Ireland is still in the United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland. They failed miserably to bring about a United Ireland. The Orangemen still march, the Union Jack still flies proudly over Northern Ireland, and pound sterling is still the currency.

I'll be there in a few weeks too. :)



Last edited by Tequila on 18 May 2012, 10:15 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Tequila
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18 May 2012, 10:11 pm

Joker wrote:
I can't bloody stand the unions or any union for that matter.


Anti-American!



Joker
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18 May 2012, 10:13 pm

Tequila wrote:
Joker wrote:
I can't bloody stand the unions or any union for that matter.


Anti-American!


I'm Native American which makes me more American 8)



Tequila
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18 May 2012, 10:14 pm

Joker wrote:
I'm Native American which makes me more American 8)


You're against unions. What is the United States of America?



Joker
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18 May 2012, 10:18 pm

Tequila wrote:
Joker wrote:
I'm Native American which makes me more American 8)


You're against unions. What is the United States of America?


The United States of America is stolen land.



Tequila
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18 May 2012, 10:21 pm

Joker wrote:
The United States of America is stolen land.


As is half the world. Things move on.



Joker
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18 May 2012, 10:24 pm

Tequila wrote:
Joker wrote:
The United States of America is stolen land.


As is half the world. Things move on.


History does not move on those painful memories live on you can't change the past but you can make a better future.



Declension
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18 May 2012, 10:36 pm

Tequila wrote:
Civil rights reforms were already starting to happen by the end of the 1960s/early 1970s. By the mid-1970s all the discriminatory elements of the old Northern Irish state had been swept away.


That's why I said groups like the IRA, not necessarily the modern IRA. The point is, power was not given up freely, as it never is. It was removed by violence and the threat of violence.

Tequila wrote:
Now, why did the IRA carry on murdering people for another twenty years? I would argue that the IRA did in fact bring little but trouble, hatred, death and misery to many, many people.


It would be nonsensical to expect a single person to instantly brush off a history of repression and not hold a grudge. Why do you expect it of an entire nation?

EDIT: changed "country" to "nation" to avoid being too inflammatory



Last edited by Declension on 19 May 2012, 1:49 am, edited 1 time in total.

Joker
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18 May 2012, 10:38 pm

Declension wrote:
Tequila wrote:
Civil rights reforms were already starting to happen by the end of the 1960s/early 1970s. By the mid-1970s all the discriminatory elements of the old Northern Irish state had been swept away.


That's why I said groups like the IRA, not necessarily the modern IRA. The point is, power was not given up freely, as it never is. It was removed by violence and the threat of violence.

Tequila wrote:
Now, why did the IRA carry on murdering people for another twenty years? I would argue that the IRA did in fact bring little but trouble, hatred, death and misery to many, many people.


It would be nonsensical to expect a single person to instantly brush off a history of repression and not hold a grudge. Why do you expect it of an entire country?


I soooo can't wait to here his response to a very tough question.



Tequila
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19 May 2012, 11:55 am

Declension wrote:
That's why I said groups like the IRA, not necessarily the modern IRA.


Or Lord Carson's UVF of 1912? "We perish if we yield?"

Though I take your point about the old IRA.

Declension wrote:
It would be nonsensical to expect a single person to instantly brush off a history of repression and not hold a grudge. Why do you expect it of an entire country?


Most Irish people realise that any bad deeds were committed a long time ago, by people who had nothing of anything to do with modern Britain or its people. It's like holding a grudge against the Germans for what they did to British cities during the war. At some point, you just have to forget about it.



Joker
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27 May 2012, 12:46 pm

Tequila wrote:
Declension wrote:
That's why I said groups like the IRA, not necessarily the modern IRA.


Or Lord Carson's UVF of 1912? "We perish if we yield?"

Though I take your point about the old IRA.

Declension wrote:
It would be nonsensical to expect a single person to instantly brush off a history of repression and not hold a grudge. Why do you expect it of an entire country?


Most Irish people realise that any bad deeds were committed a long time ago, by people who had nothing of anything to do with modern Britain or its people. It's like holding a grudge against the Germans for what they did to British cities during the war. At some point, you just have to forget about it.


It's hard to forget things like this my afrian americans relatives still will not let go of the fact that they where enslaved just like the Irish where enslaved.



Mummy_of_Peanut
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27 May 2012, 3:45 pm

Joker, the Irish were not enslaved by the British. They may have been treated poorly and like second class citizens, but never enslaved.


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