Are there any gay people who think they choose to be gay?

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Vigilans
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29 May 2012, 7:18 pm

HerrGrimm wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
I need to be cured of my blackness, can Jesus help me


Science can help you, but are you willing to die in the process?

I'm serious, you can change your skin color, but it is life-threatening. I mean, if you are willing to put syphilis into them, why not try this procedure as well?


Is that what happened to Michael Jackson????! !!


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WilliamWDelaney
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29 May 2012, 7:33 pm

ruveyn wrote:
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AngelRho wrote:
It seems to be more of language feature that has gotten lost, but observant Jews still won't mix cheese and meat.
Actually, my first guy was Jewish, and he tells me that the reason Jews won't mix cheese and meat is that lactose intolerance is very common among Jewish people.


Nonsense!
Well, he was very much a reform Jew, and he only really went to religious services to do stuff like getting his children bar mitzvahed and all that. I was never really all that clear on whether he was an atheist or what...he was always kind of mysterious about that sort of thing. Anyway, he wasn't a very avid Jew really, so I don't know how reliable his explanations really are. I'm just telling what he told me.

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Younger Jews have [no] trouble mixing meat and milk and even nibbling at piggy meat. And why not? Is there anything quite as good as a properly cook rack of ribs? It is very unfair of God letting Gentiles have all the good tasting stuff.
My ex actually never ate a kosher meal in the whole time that I knew him. In fact, he would go out of his way to violate it.

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And besides. What did God do for the Jews during the Holocaust? Nada. Bupkis. So why should we keep kosher?
I think I'd like you in person.



AstroGeek
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29 May 2012, 8:40 pm

A bit off topic now, but still worth sharing I think:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqs_KU-PhTM[/youtube]



WilliamWDelaney
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30 May 2012, 6:39 am

I know that a lot of people might have trouble understanding this comparison, but I have always thought of homosexuality a lot like I think of Aspergers and Tourettes. The thing is, neither of them is really an illness at low amplitude, but the only thing that usually makes them a nuisance, unless they are very severe or accompanied by more substantial problems, is other people's inability to make peace with other people's differences. Really, take the "rocking back and forth." Some people say, "it makes you look crazy." Well, the same people who say that never notice someone shifting from side to side after standing still for a long time. The tics that come with Tourettes often don't amount to much if you consider that most people have "normal" tics and stims, such as bouncing their leg up and down when they are nervous. The fact that Aspergers often doesn't cause people any substantial problems unto itself, outside of the intolerance and bigotry of ignorant people, is part of why I don't think it ought to be considered to be a disease except at a certain threshold of severity. I don't see how it's different that some people are gay.

Now, let me tell you something about so-called "bears." You know, those hyper-masculine gay guys? Let me tell you, in reality, all of them are hiding ultra-feminine personalities under all that hair, even compared to most gay guys. I am not kidding. They are the most stereotypical females you will ever meet, in every non-physical sense of the word, and I mean all of them. You know how women will hold a grudge for eternity and then some? Yep. And they throw the most puerile tantrums, especially over relationships that didn't work out. I mean, you won't find some ordinary smooth-twink, after a break-up, looting his house for a bunch of old pictures to shred or burn. Also, they seem to have this idea of what they are entitled to get in bed, and they will blow you out if you don't perform like a trained seal. They are really that obnoxious. Oh, and they are such gossips. Let me tell you, these so-called "bears" who pretend they are so "non-stereotypical" are the worst gossips in the cosmos. I am not kidding: if you want to know the details of the sex lives of every gay man in the city, ask one of those guys who try to groom themselves as "ultra-masculine" because they will tell you where all of them live, what they do for a living, and the exact reason they broke up with their past lovers.

In fact, there is only one "bear" I would ever consider dating:

Image



pat_can
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30 May 2012, 11:03 am

Homosexuality isn't a physical illness but a spiritual illness. If you are OK with it, I have no problem but I still think it's bad (sinful). If you look at statistic, you we see homosexuality isn't the same then heterosexuality. Aids, drug abuse, infidelity are higher in the gay community. Life expectancy are shorter for men with same sex attraction.

Some people with same sex attraction kill themself because nobody tell them they are a cure for homosexuality. I'm still alive because a christian tell me he can help me with my same sex attraction. The therapy work great and I'm still here to talk about it.



Mummy_of_Peanut
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30 May 2012, 12:24 pm

pat_can wrote:
Aids, drug abuse, infidelity are higher in the gay community. Life expectancy are shorter for men with same sex attraction. Some people with same sex attraction kill themself because nobody tell them they are a cure for homosexuality.
Do you have actual solid evidence for these claims?


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visagrunt
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30 May 2012, 12:26 pm

pat can,

I would never contradict your experience.

But your experience, and the handful of people whose experiences are similar are vastly outweighed by the people whose experiences are similar to mine.

So long as you are talking out your own experience, I'll not gainsay you. But you cannot pretend that your experience can be applied to all people with a same-sex attraction--or even by all Christians who believe their same sex attraction is sinful and want to repress it. Ex-gay programs fail far more often than they succeed, and I would venture to suggest that the people who try and fail are even worse off than the men who never try at all.


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pat_can
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30 May 2012, 12:42 pm

Mummy_of_Peanut wrote:
pat_can wrote:
Aids, drug abuse, infidelity are higher in the gay community. Life expectancy are shorter for men with same sex attraction. Some people with same sex attraction kill themself because nobody tell them they are a cure for homosexuality.
Do you have actual solid evidence for these claims?


NARTH (secular organisation)

"NARTH is a professional, scientific organization that offers hope to those who struggle with unwanted homosexuality. As an organization, we disseminate educational information, conduct and collect scientific research, promote effective therapeutic treatment, and provide referrals to those who seek our assistance." NARTH website



pat_can
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30 May 2012, 12:49 pm

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But you cannot pretend that your experience can be applied to all people with a same-sex attraction


I agree. I just want to tell people with unwanted same-sex attraction that they are hope. Therapy work well (around 80% here in Quebec for the non-religious group "Ta Vie Ton Choix").



visagrunt
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30 May 2012, 12:54 pm

pat_can wrote:
I agree. I just want to tell people with unwanted same-sex attraction that they are hope. Therapy work well (around 80% here in Quebec for the non-religious group "Ta Vie Ton Choix").


Those are outright lies.

First, you cannot use your experience to suggest to other people who are disordered as a result of their same sex attraction that they can experience results comparable to yours. Remember what it says on the Weight Watchers ad: "Results may vary." You are wantonly irresponsible if you fail to disclose the same.

Second, the therapy does not work well, and there is absolutely no clinical evidence to suggest the 80% figure that you so blithely cite.

I won't contradict your statements about your own experience. But I will call you a liar to your face if you dare to suggest falsehoods like these.


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pat_can
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30 May 2012, 1:19 pm

I found a study on SOCE (sexual-orientation change efforts therapy) with a sucess rate of 53% to 64%.

The original study was published in 2007 by Stanton Jones, Ph.D., of Wheaton College, and Mark Yarhouse, Ph.D., of Regent University.

http://narth.com/2011/10/2061/

Also, Dr. Robert L. Spitzer (atheist) found that SOCE can be very effective (around 80%). Dr. Spitzer isn't anti-gay. He help APA to remove homosexuality from its list of mental disorders in 1973.



Rainy
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30 May 2012, 1:23 pm

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Homosexuality isn't a physical illness but a spiritual illness.


I was laughing, but then I remembered people like you are allowed to vote.



naturalplastic
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30 May 2012, 1:34 pm

pat_can wrote:
Homosexuality isn't a physical illness but a spiritual illness. If you are OK with it, I have no problem but I still think it's bad (sinful). If you look at statistic, you we see homosexuality isn't the same then heterosexuality. Aids, drug abuse, infidelity are higher in the gay community. Life expectancy are shorter for men with same sex attraction.

Some people with same sex attraction kill themself because nobody tell them they are a cure for homosexuality. I'm still alive because a christian tell me he can help me with my same sex attraction. The therapy work great and I'm still here to talk about it.


Not to pick a fight, nor do I wanna pry into your personal life, but Im just curious. What exactly are you talking about?
Forget the stats, just about you.

Do you feel that you were actually 'cured' of homosexuality?

If so what does that actually mean?

Do you mean (a) the program caused you to actually become hetereosexual?

Or (b) the program is to homosexuality what AA is to drinking perhaps- the urge never goes away but the coaching and fellowship helps keep you from succumbing to it? ( I suspect thats what these programs the AngelRho talks about are really about- which is fine if thats what someone wants).

Or is it (c) niether of the above? you're talking about something else entirely.



pat_can
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30 May 2012, 2:16 pm

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Do you feel that you were actually 'cured' of homosexuality?


Yes.

I found where came my same sex attraction. It's my reaction to an absent father and a mother who took all the space at home. Elizabeth Moberly call this "defensive detachment". You can learn more here: http://www.samesexattraction.org/development.htm

I took time in therapy for healing the past. Also, I try to have a better relationship with my father. In the healing process, same sex attraction disappear.

Today, I have almost no attraction to men. I have been in a relationship with a women in the past but I still struggled with AS issue. It's why we broke up. It was before my AS diagnosis.



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30 May 2012, 4:21 pm

pat_can wrote:
If you are OK with it, I have no problem but I still think it's bad (sinful). If you look at statistic, you we see homosexuality isn't the same then heterosexuality. Aids, drug abuse, infidelity are higher in the gay community.

Hmm. I wonder why that could be? Oh!! ! Maybe coping with the discrimination and alienation could explain it! Look at my earlier post for elaboration.



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30 May 2012, 5:19 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Homosexuality is wrong for two reasons from the Christian perspective. First of all, God created us male and female.


What about intersex people? They may be forced by our cultural conventions to present as one way or another, but they aren't created as fitting that male-female dichotomy so neatly.

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Oh, and btw...the Bible does not say being attracted to something evil or being tempted by something evil is a sin. SSA is not a sin. It is believing that acting on it is acceptable behavior and actually engaging in it that is harmful. If someone gives up on the natural order of male-female relationships for cohabiting, pleasure, procreation, etc., then he's expressing dissatisfaction with God's created order.


Your "natural order" according to God is 2,000 years old, and also includes misogynistic gems like this:

1 Corinthians 14:34-35 (NIV) wrote:
Women should remain silent in the churches. They are not allowed to speak, but must be in submission, as the law says. If they want to inquire about something, they should ask their own husbands at home; for it is disgraceful for a woman to speak in the church.


On the earthly side-- If you cannot see how this antiquated notion of the "natural order" fundamentally conflicts with the concept of equal rights for all and rule of law, then I'm not sure what to tell you. You might as well go live in a totalitarian junta or something, because when we start getting into talk of who is a first-class citizen and who is a second-class citizen, we're not in democratic territory anymore.

And on the ethereal side-- I thought God was supposed to be a loving, forgiving Father. I thought His love for His children was supposed to be infinite. Why should He subjugate one demographic of His children to another for reasons determined by birth? And further, why should He make some of His children homosexual, only to forever deny them the right to truly share their lives with the people they love? Strikes me as a little cruel, don't you think?

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The second reason is that in the ancient world, homosexuality was a feature of paganism and continues to represent a worship of false gods. No matter how you try to get around it, it is never appropriate behavior for a Christian believer.


If having associations with paganism were a mark of "inacceptable behavior for a Christian believer", you wouldn't be celebrating Christmas or Easter. Christmas as we know and love it today contains a number of rituals which actually arise from the pagan Roman winter solstice festival known as Saturnalia. Even the date reflects the influence of paganism-- there's not a whole lot of evidence that Christ was actually born in late December, in the dead of winter. Similarly, Easter also has roots in paganism, in annual observances of the arrival of spring. Yet Christianity has been able to reconcile these pagan behaviors with its own canon. That is, of course, because when Christianity was spreading to areas of eastern and northern Europe dominated by Germanic tribes and other pagan peoples, it was trying to convert them-- and mixing a few of the pagan rituals into the Christian doctrine made conversion easier.

The fact is, Christianity has a long history of colluding with paganism when it serves the agendas of the Christians.


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Last edited by Chevand on 30 May 2012, 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.