Are there any gay people who think they choose to be gay?
Science can help you, but are you willing to die in the process?
I'm serious, you can change your skin color, but it is life-threatening. I mean, if you are willing to put syphilis into them, why not try this procedure as well?
Is that what happened to Michael Jackson????! !!
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Opportunities multiply as they are seized. -Sun Tzu
Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
You can safely assume that you've created God in your own image when it turns out that God hates all the same people you do
Nonsense!
I know that a lot of people might have trouble understanding this comparison, but I have always thought of homosexuality a lot like I think of Aspergers and Tourettes. The thing is, neither of them is really an illness at low amplitude, but the only thing that usually makes them a nuisance, unless they are very severe or accompanied by more substantial problems, is other people's inability to make peace with other people's differences. Really, take the "rocking back and forth." Some people say, "it makes you look crazy." Well, the same people who say that never notice someone shifting from side to side after standing still for a long time. The tics that come with Tourettes often don't amount to much if you consider that most people have "normal" tics and stims, such as bouncing their leg up and down when they are nervous. The fact that Aspergers often doesn't cause people any substantial problems unto itself, outside of the intolerance and bigotry of ignorant people, is part of why I don't think it ought to be considered to be a disease except at a certain threshold of severity. I don't see how it's different that some people are gay.
Now, let me tell you something about so-called "bears." You know, those hyper-masculine gay guys? Let me tell you, in reality, all of them are hiding ultra-feminine personalities under all that hair, even compared to most gay guys. I am not kidding. They are the most stereotypical females you will ever meet, in every non-physical sense of the word, and I mean all of them. You know how women will hold a grudge for eternity and then some? Yep. And they throw the most puerile tantrums, especially over relationships that didn't work out. I mean, you won't find some ordinary smooth-twink, after a break-up, looting his house for a bunch of old pictures to shred or burn. Also, they seem to have this idea of what they are entitled to get in bed, and they will blow you out if you don't perform like a trained seal. They are really that obnoxious. Oh, and they are such gossips. Let me tell you, these so-called "bears" who pretend they are so "non-stereotypical" are the worst gossips in the cosmos. I am not kidding: if you want to know the details of the sex lives of every gay man in the city, ask one of those guys who try to groom themselves as "ultra-masculine" because they will tell you where all of them live, what they do for a living, and the exact reason they broke up with their past lovers.
In fact, there is only one "bear" I would ever consider dating:
Homosexuality isn't a physical illness but a spiritual illness. If you are OK with it, I have no problem but I still think it's bad (sinful). If you look at statistic, you we see homosexuality isn't the same then heterosexuality. Aids, drug abuse, infidelity are higher in the gay community. Life expectancy are shorter for men with same sex attraction.
Some people with same sex attraction kill themself because nobody tell them they are a cure for homosexuality. I'm still alive because a christian tell me he can help me with my same sex attraction. The therapy work great and I'm still here to talk about it.
Mummy_of_Peanut
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Age: 51
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"We act as though comfort and luxury were the chief requirements of life, when all we need to make us really happy is something to be enthusiatic about." Charles Kingsley
pat can,
I would never contradict your experience.
But your experience, and the handful of people whose experiences are similar are vastly outweighed by the people whose experiences are similar to mine.
So long as you are talking out your own experience, I'll not gainsay you. But you cannot pretend that your experience can be applied to all people with a same-sex attraction--or even by all Christians who believe their same sex attraction is sinful and want to repress it. Ex-gay programs fail far more often than they succeed, and I would venture to suggest that the people who try and fail are even worse off than the men who never try at all.
_________________
--James
NARTH (secular organisation)
"NARTH is a professional, scientific organization that offers hope to those who struggle with unwanted homosexuality. As an organization, we disseminate educational information, conduct and collect scientific research, promote effective therapeutic treatment, and provide referrals to those who seek our assistance." NARTH website
I agree. I just want to tell people with unwanted same-sex attraction that they are hope. Therapy work well (around 80% here in Quebec for the non-religious group "Ta Vie Ton Choix").
Those are outright lies.
First, you cannot use your experience to suggest to other people who are disordered as a result of their same sex attraction that they can experience results comparable to yours. Remember what it says on the Weight Watchers ad: "Results may vary." You are wantonly irresponsible if you fail to disclose the same.
Second, the therapy does not work well, and there is absolutely no clinical evidence to suggest the 80% figure that you so blithely cite.
I won't contradict your statements about your own experience. But I will call you a liar to your face if you dare to suggest falsehoods like these.
_________________
--James
I found a study on SOCE (sexual-orientation change efforts therapy) with a sucess rate of 53% to 64%.
The original study was published in 2007 by Stanton Jones, Ph.D., of Wheaton College, and Mark Yarhouse, Ph.D., of Regent University.
http://narth.com/2011/10/2061/
Also, Dr. Robert L. Spitzer (atheist) found that SOCE can be very effective (around 80%). Dr. Spitzer isn't anti-gay. He help APA to remove homosexuality from its list of mental disorders in 1973.
Some people with same sex attraction kill themself because nobody tell them they are a cure for homosexuality. I'm still alive because a christian tell me he can help me with my same sex attraction. The therapy work great and I'm still here to talk about it.
Not to pick a fight, nor do I wanna pry into your personal life, but Im just curious. What exactly are you talking about?
Forget the stats, just about you.
Do you feel that you were actually 'cured' of homosexuality?
If so what does that actually mean?
Do you mean (a) the program caused you to actually become hetereosexual?
Or (b) the program is to homosexuality what AA is to drinking perhaps- the urge never goes away but the coaching and fellowship helps keep you from succumbing to it? ( I suspect thats what these programs the AngelRho talks about are really about- which is fine if thats what someone wants).
Or is it (c) niether of the above? you're talking about something else entirely.
Yes.
I found where came my same sex attraction. It's my reaction to an absent father and a mother who took all the space at home. Elizabeth Moberly call this "defensive detachment". You can learn more here: http://www.samesexattraction.org/development.htm
I took time in therapy for healing the past. Also, I try to have a better relationship with my father. In the healing process, same sex attraction disappear.
Today, I have almost no attraction to men. I have been in a relationship with a women in the past but I still struggled with AS issue. It's why we broke up. It was before my AS diagnosis.
Hmm. I wonder why that could be? Oh!! ! Maybe coping with the discrimination and alienation could explain it! Look at my earlier post for elaboration.
What about intersex people? They may be forced by our cultural conventions to present as one way or another, but they aren't created as fitting that male-female dichotomy so neatly.
Your "natural order" according to God is 2,000 years old, and also includes misogynistic gems like this:
On the earthly side-- If you cannot see how this antiquated notion of the "natural order" fundamentally conflicts with the concept of equal rights for all and rule of law, then I'm not sure what to tell you. You might as well go live in a totalitarian junta or something, because when we start getting into talk of who is a first-class citizen and who is a second-class citizen, we're not in democratic territory anymore.
And on the ethereal side-- I thought God was supposed to be a loving, forgiving Father. I thought His love for His children was supposed to be infinite. Why should He subjugate one demographic of His children to another for reasons determined by birth? And further, why should He make some of His children homosexual, only to forever deny them the right to truly share their lives with the people they love? Strikes me as a little cruel, don't you think?
If having associations with paganism were a mark of "inacceptable behavior for a Christian believer", you wouldn't be celebrating Christmas or Easter. Christmas as we know and love it today contains a number of rituals which actually arise from the pagan Roman winter solstice festival known as Saturnalia. Even the date reflects the influence of paganism-- there's not a whole lot of evidence that Christ was actually born in late December, in the dead of winter. Similarly, Easter also has roots in paganism, in annual observances of the arrival of spring. Yet Christianity has been able to reconcile these pagan behaviors with its own canon. That is, of course, because when Christianity was spreading to areas of eastern and northern Europe dominated by Germanic tribes and other pagan peoples, it was trying to convert them-- and mixing a few of the pagan rituals into the Christian doctrine made conversion easier.
The fact is, Christianity has a long history of colluding with paganism when it serves the agendas of the Christians.
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Mediocrity is a petty vice; aspiring to it is a grievous sin.
Last edited by Chevand on 30 May 2012, 5:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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