Are there any gay people who think they choose to be gay?

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WilliamWDelaney
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29 May 2012, 11:25 am

AngelRho wrote:
It seems to be more of language feature that has gotten lost, but observant Jews still won't mix cheese and meat.
Actually, my first guy was Jewish, and he tells me that the reason Jews won't mix cheese and meat is that lactose intolerance is very common among Jewish people. The mixture of cheese and meat make a bad thing worse, and they can get somewhat sick. Some of them won't even eat dairy and meat in the same meal. If it did the same thing to your digestive tract that it does to theirs, you wouldn't either.



AstroGeek
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29 May 2012, 5:07 pm

edgewaters wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
Mixing fibers: These laws are actually still in effect for most of western society. There is some evidence in the OT that mixtures are reserved strictly for holy items such as those used in the Tent of Meeting or Temple worship. But, also, the OT places high importance on honest weights and measures. So probably what is intended by those laws is that people trading cloth are to accurately describe what it is they are selling. In other words, don't mix a superior product with an inferior product and try to sell it at a more expensive price. If you were to, say, sell material that is 50% silk and 50% cotton, you should tell someone that and lower the price rather than lie about it and say that it's 100% silk. And we haven't really abandoned this law in modern times, either. Clothing comes with labels describing what it is--not just for the sake of care and cleaning, but to let the customer know what he's buying and decide whether the listed price is a fair one. We have the right to litigation if we find out we're buying a counterfeit product.



Nonsensical. It is not a law against selling material, it is a law against wearing material. If it were intended to prevent the sort of cheating you're talking about, then it couldn't work as anyone can readily see. Either the person who intends to wear it knows the fiber is mixed, in which case he isn't being cheated. Or he doesn't, in which case a law against not wearing mixed fibers can't help him because he doesn't know they are mixed.

I've also read somewhere, although unfortunately I have completely forgotten where, that when you look at the historical context of the prohibition of male homosexuality you see it in a different light. I've never read the Bible, so I can't back this up, but apparently much of what was written seems more like it was advice on good hygiene than moral commandments.



HerrGrimm
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29 May 2012, 5:49 pm

AstroGeek wrote:
I've also read somewhere, although unfortunately I have completely forgotten where, that when you look at the historical context of the prohibition of male homosexuality you see it in a different light. I've never read the Bible, so I can't back this up, but apparently much of what was written seems more like it was advice on good hygiene than moral commandments.


The historical context behind the Leviticus verses were to stop Jews, who were not living in good conditions at the time, from joining the more appealing neighbors with their fertility cults and rituals. It is blatantly obvious that while homosexuality may be immoral, the death penalty was for idolatry (obviously, it is everywhere in that book) and not the actual practice. Unless someone wants to explain why it does...

Well, OK, what about Romans, Corinthians, and Timothy? Well, Paul wrote in Greek, and he would see other things he MIGHT call homosexuality (even though there was no real word for that in hisculture)...except it is now called pederasty (points to language he wrote in).

How do I know this? Check this out:

Source

In the Catholic Church Catechism, they wrote:
2357 Homosexuality refers to relations between men or between women who experience an exclusive or predominant sexual attraction toward persons of the same sex. It has taken a great variety of forms through the centuries and in different cultures. Its psychological genesis remains largely unexplained. Basing itself on Sacred Scripture, which presents homosexual acts as acts of grave depravity,140 tradition has always declared that "homosexual acts are intrinsically disordered."141 They are contrary to the natural law. They close the sexual act to the gift of life. They do not proceed from a genuine affective and sexual complementarity. Under no circumstances can they be approved.


I'm sure the other Christians here with their message of "tolerance" have nice things to say about Devil wor...I mean Catholics, sorry. This is the worst kept secret among Christian conservatives on WP, I'm serious.

Emphasis mine. They know what it refers to, they just twisted it to make it mean like that. The numbers inside the quote are references...none of which are the Leviticus verses.


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ruveyn
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29 May 2012, 5:57 pm

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
It seems to be more of language feature that has gotten lost, but observant Jews still won't mix cheese and meat.
Actually, my first guy was Jewish, and he tells me that the reason Jews won't mix cheese and meat is that lactose intolerance is very common among Jewish people.


Nonsense! Many Jews don't do meat and milk products out of the habits from their upbringing. That is very common among the not all that observant Jews of my age cohort. Younger Jews have trouble mixing meat and milk and even nibbling at piggy meat. And why not? Is there anything quite as good as a properly cook rack of ribs? It is very unfair of God letting Gentiles have all the good tasting stuff.

And besides. What did God do for the Jews during the Holocaust? Nada. Bupkis. So why should we keep kosher?

ruveyn



blauSamstag
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29 May 2012, 6:43 pm

ruveyn wrote:
WilliamWDelaney wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
It seems to be more of language feature that has gotten lost, but observant Jews still won't mix cheese and meat.
Actually, my first guy was Jewish, and he tells me that the reason Jews won't mix cheese and meat is that lactose intolerance is very common among Jewish people.


Nonsense! Many Jews don't do meat and milk products out of the habits from their upbringing. That is very common among the not all that observant Jews of my age cohort. Younger Jews have trouble mixing meat and milk and even nibbling at piggy meat. And why not? Is there anything quite as good as a properly cook rack of ribs? It is very unfair of God letting Gentiles have all the good tasting stuff.

And besides. What did God do for the Jews during the Holocaust? Nada. Bupkis. So why should we keep kosher?

ruveyn


What, you don't buy the argument that allowing you to suffer and die should bring you closer to Him?

All i know for sure is, I can't possibly accept the existence of a supreme deity that would deny me a bacon cheeseburger, let alone worship it.



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29 May 2012, 6:49 pm

Image


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naturalplastic
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29 May 2012, 7:12 pm

WilliamWDelaney wrote:
Rainy wrote:
And of course you try to justify slavery in the Bible just like any good fundamentalist would. At least fundamentalism is dying out.
There you go. AngelRho is like someone back when black people were kept as slaves saying that, instead of America abolishing slavery, black people ought to stop having the desire to be free. And, if they can't, they ought to learn to suppress this desire. When the religion is bad, not the people, it is the religion that ought to change, not the people.


Nonsense!

If AngelRho had lived back then he wouldve freely admitted that "Black people dont choose to be Black", but he would insist that Black people enroll in church based programs to "deal with their Blackness" as an alternative to joining in "the Black lifestyle".

But if you tried to pin him down as to what all of that actually means in practical terms- if he is saying what he seems to be saying- that religion can cure you of Blackness and actually make you White- he would just dance around the issue and cry that youre twisting his words. But he would still steadfastly refuse to state just what his "words" actually are.



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29 May 2012, 7:13 pm

I need to be cured of my blackness, can Jesus help me


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Nature creates few men brave, industry and training makes many -Machiavelli
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HerrGrimm
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29 May 2012, 7:17 pm

Vigilans wrote:
I need to be cured of my blackness, can Jesus help me


Science can help you, but are you willing to die in the process?

I'm serious, you can change your skin color, but it is life-threatening. I mean, if you are willing to put syphilis into them, why not try this procedure as well?


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Vigilans
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29 May 2012, 7:18 pm

HerrGrimm wrote:
Vigilans wrote:
I need to be cured of my blackness, can Jesus help me


Science can help you, but are you willing to die in the process?

I'm serious, you can change your skin color, but it is life-threatening. I mean, if you are willing to put syphilis into them, why not try this procedure as well?


Is that what happened to Michael Jackson????! !!


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WilliamWDelaney
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29 May 2012, 7:33 pm

ruveyn wrote:
WilliamWDelaney wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
It seems to be more of language feature that has gotten lost, but observant Jews still won't mix cheese and meat.
Actually, my first guy was Jewish, and he tells me that the reason Jews won't mix cheese and meat is that lactose intolerance is very common among Jewish people.


Nonsense!
Well, he was very much a reform Jew, and he only really went to religious services to do stuff like getting his children bar mitzvahed and all that. I was never really all that clear on whether he was an atheist or what...he was always kind of mysterious about that sort of thing. Anyway, he wasn't a very avid Jew really, so I don't know how reliable his explanations really are. I'm just telling what he told me.

Quote:
Younger Jews have [no] trouble mixing meat and milk and even nibbling at piggy meat. And why not? Is there anything quite as good as a properly cook rack of ribs? It is very unfair of God letting Gentiles have all the good tasting stuff.
My ex actually never ate a kosher meal in the whole time that I knew him. In fact, he would go out of his way to violate it.

Quote:
And besides. What did God do for the Jews during the Holocaust? Nada. Bupkis. So why should we keep kosher?
I think I'd like you in person.



AstroGeek
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29 May 2012, 8:40 pm

A bit off topic now, but still worth sharing I think:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Lqs_KU-PhTM[/youtube]



WilliamWDelaney
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30 May 2012, 6:39 am

I know that a lot of people might have trouble understanding this comparison, but I have always thought of homosexuality a lot like I think of Aspergers and Tourettes. The thing is, neither of them is really an illness at low amplitude, but the only thing that usually makes them a nuisance, unless they are very severe or accompanied by more substantial problems, is other people's inability to make peace with other people's differences. Really, take the "rocking back and forth." Some people say, "it makes you look crazy." Well, the same people who say that never notice someone shifting from side to side after standing still for a long time. The tics that come with Tourettes often don't amount to much if you consider that most people have "normal" tics and stims, such as bouncing their leg up and down when they are nervous. The fact that Aspergers often doesn't cause people any substantial problems unto itself, outside of the intolerance and bigotry of ignorant people, is part of why I don't think it ought to be considered to be a disease except at a certain threshold of severity. I don't see how it's different that some people are gay.

Now, let me tell you something about so-called "bears." You know, those hyper-masculine gay guys? Let me tell you, in reality, all of them are hiding ultra-feminine personalities under all that hair, even compared to most gay guys. I am not kidding. They are the most stereotypical females you will ever meet, in every non-physical sense of the word, and I mean all of them. You know how women will hold a grudge for eternity and then some? Yep. And they throw the most puerile tantrums, especially over relationships that didn't work out. I mean, you won't find some ordinary smooth-twink, after a break-up, looting his house for a bunch of old pictures to shred or burn. Also, they seem to have this idea of what they are entitled to get in bed, and they will blow you out if you don't perform like a trained seal. They are really that obnoxious. Oh, and they are such gossips. Let me tell you, these so-called "bears" who pretend they are so "non-stereotypical" are the worst gossips in the cosmos. I am not kidding: if you want to know the details of the sex lives of every gay man in the city, ask one of those guys who try to groom themselves as "ultra-masculine" because they will tell you where all of them live, what they do for a living, and the exact reason they broke up with their past lovers.

In fact, there is only one "bear" I would ever consider dating:

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pat_can
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30 May 2012, 11:03 am

Homosexuality isn't a physical illness but a spiritual illness. If you are OK with it, I have no problem but I still think it's bad (sinful). If you look at statistic, you we see homosexuality isn't the same then heterosexuality. Aids, drug abuse, infidelity are higher in the gay community. Life expectancy are shorter for men with same sex attraction.

Some people with same sex attraction kill themself because nobody tell them they are a cure for homosexuality. I'm still alive because a christian tell me he can help me with my same sex attraction. The therapy work great and I'm still here to talk about it.



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30 May 2012, 12:24 pm

pat_can wrote:
Aids, drug abuse, infidelity are higher in the gay community. Life expectancy are shorter for men with same sex attraction. Some people with same sex attraction kill themself because nobody tell them they are a cure for homosexuality.
Do you have actual solid evidence for these claims?


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30 May 2012, 12:26 pm

pat can,

I would never contradict your experience.

But your experience, and the handful of people whose experiences are similar are vastly outweighed by the people whose experiences are similar to mine.

So long as you are talking out your own experience, I'll not gainsay you. But you cannot pretend that your experience can be applied to all people with a same-sex attraction--or even by all Christians who believe their same sex attraction is sinful and want to repress it. Ex-gay programs fail far more often than they succeed, and I would venture to suggest that the people who try and fail are even worse off than the men who never try at all.


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