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Rocky
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28 May 2012, 4:47 am

Kraichgauer wrote:
While I still hold to my Lutheranism I was raised with, I am not about to deny the validity of evolution, as there is too much evidence for it's existence. I guess you can put me down as believing in a divinely guided evolution.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Its hard for me to think up any conceivable reason why an all powerful god would bother with such a long, complicated process.


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TallyMan
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28 May 2012, 5:34 am

Rocky wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
While I still hold to my Lutheranism I was raised with, I am not about to deny the validity of evolution, as there is too much evidence for it's existence. I guess you can put me down as believing in a divinely guided evolution.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Its hard for me to think up any conceivable reason why an all powerful god would bother with such a long, complicated process.


Especially when it works so well on its own without divine intervention anyway! :lol:


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28 May 2012, 5:36 am

Alien100 wrote:
At what point was the word religion created, and why. but at what point did this word need to exist. My theory is that it came directly when humans had it's first disagreement.


google tells me that the english language word "religion" comes from a latin root meaning "mans' obligation to the gods". English is the only language I know so I can't research it in the languages that don't have latin roots.

Nonetheless, it is likely that the word "religion" in various languages is a variant on the same theme- human duty to honor that which is sacred and divine. I doubt that humans having their first disagreements was relevent at the time the concept of religion was created. Although religious disagreements are common now, and propel many into war, it is unlikely that paleolithic humans who were inventing the concept (seen in cave art and burials) would center it around what disagreements they had with each other about how to bury or worship. I think it's even more possible that at that early stage, there weren't real disagreements. Things would simply seem obvious. It is more likely that the concept from its very start was just like its more modern latin root, duty to honor the sacred.



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28 May 2012, 5:39 am

roronoa79 wrote:
[Kraich's stance seems akin to the idea that God, by creating the universe, created evolution. Because God knows everything, he indirectly "guided" evolution by knowingly creating a universe in which events occurred in such a way that we have the universe as it is now.


If I were religious, that's what I would go with. God "wrote" the physical laws which govern the universe and when life arises on a planet, those physical laws govern evolution.



TallyMan
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28 May 2012, 5:57 am

Janissy wrote:
roronoa79 wrote:
[Kraich's stance seems akin to the idea that God, by creating the universe, created evolution. Because God knows everything, he indirectly "guided" evolution by knowingly creating a universe in which events occurred in such a way that we have the universe as it is now.


If I were religious, that's what I would go with. God "wrote" the physical laws which govern the universe and when life arises on a planet, those physical laws govern evolution.


As those "laws" become investigated deeper and deeper by scientific enquiry they are less like "laws" in the human sense and are shown to be merely mathematics in action. So ultimately unless God wrote the "law" that 1 + 1 = 2 then it is becoming increasingly apparent that there is no role left such such a divine entity. The whole universe and evolution is mathematics in action. Just because a lot of the processes involve complex mathematics of which the vast majority of people have no education in and don't have a clue about is no reason to attribute those processes to magic or magical beings. Most people don't understand how a rainbow is formed, let alone the processes behind evolution. Maybe rainbows are "guided by God" to make the sky pretty?


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ruveyn
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28 May 2012, 7:37 am

Janissy wrote:

If I were religious, that's what I would go with. God "wrote" the physical laws which govern the universe and when life arises on a planet, those physical laws govern evolution.


Given that there are invariant principles along which the cosmos operates, who needs God? The cosmos unfolds as it will and should.

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28 May 2012, 9:08 am

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Given that there are invariant principles along which the cosmos operates, who needs God? The cosmos unfolds as it will and should.


Who wrote those principles? Who decided how the cosmos "should" unfold?
The religious answer is a god or gods.

No argument ever proves or disproves the existence of God(s).
It is futile to attempt either.



Oodain
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28 May 2012, 9:21 am

YippySkippy wrote:
Quote:
Given that there are invariant principles along which the cosmos operates, who needs God? The cosmos unfolds as it will and should.


Who wrote those principles? Who decided how the cosmos "should" unfold?
The religious answer is a god or gods.

No argument ever proves or disproves the existence of God(s).
It is futile to attempt either.


then it should be readily apparant than no one should base their actions on such assumptions doesnt it?
especially when it hurts other people that did not make a conscoiuss choice to do so.


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28 May 2012, 9:43 am

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then it should be readily apparant than no one should base their actions on such assumptions doesnt it?
especially when it hurts other people that did not make a conscoiuss choice to do so.



People should base their actions upon whatever seems best to them. One of the purposes of religion is to prod people into treating each other kindly. Like all other human institutions, however, religion is subject to corruption.



TallyMan
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28 May 2012, 9:47 am

YippySkippy wrote:
Quote:
Given that there are invariant principles along which the cosmos operates, who needs God? The cosmos unfolds as it will and should.


Who wrote those principles? Who decided how the cosmos "should" unfold?
The religious answer is a god or gods.

No argument ever proves or disproves the existence of God(s).
It is futile to attempt either.


The unfolding of the cosmos is simply the unfolding of mathematical principles. Nobody wrote the laws of mathematics. They just are. From the simple statement that 1 + 1 = 2 a whole cascade of mathematical principles follows and more follow from them right up to mathematics regarding the formation and complexity of the universe and living organisms. Bear in mind that mathematics is discovered, it is not invented or created (though people may invent various techniques and tools to manipulate numbers or equations but that is not inventing the mathematics itself). So nobody, no god, decided how the universe should unfold. It is a natural consequence of mathematics, nothing more.


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Rocky
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28 May 2012, 2:25 pm

Janissy wrote:
Alien100 wrote:
At what point was the word religion created, and why. but at what point did this word need to exist. My theory is that it came directly when humans had it's first disagreement.


google tells me that the english language word "religion" comes from a latin root meaning "mans' obligation to the gods". English is the only language I know so I can't research it in the languages that don't have latin roots.

Nonetheless, it is likely that the word "religion" in various languages is a variant on the same theme- human duty to honor that which is sacred and divine. I doubt that humans having their first disagreements was relevent at the time the concept of religion was created. Although religious disagreements are common now, and propel many into war, it is unlikely that paleolithic humans who were inventing the concept (seen in cave art and burials) would center it around what disagreements they had with each other about how to bury or worship. I think it's even more possible that at that early stage, there weren't real disagreements. Things would simply seem obvious. It is more likely that the concept from its very start was just like its more modern latin root, duty to honor the sacred.


My guess is that religion came about in order to explain things about reality we did not know at that point. Now that we know so much about the physical universe, there is less and less left to explain by attributing it to a god. This is known as the "god of the gaps" model.


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roronoa79
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28 May 2012, 4:59 pm

Rocky wrote:
My guess is that religion came about in order to explain things about reality we did not know at that point. Now that we know so much about the physical universe, there is less and less left to explain by attributing it to a god. This is known as the "god of the gaps" model.


That is usually my explanation for how religion came to be.
To your second point: What we will do when we reach the limit of what science, technology, and human sensation can reveal to us?



edgewaters
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28 May 2012, 5:27 pm

Janissy wrote:
Although religious disagreements are common now, and propel many into war, it is unlikely that paleolithic humans who were inventing the concept (seen in cave art and burials) would center it around what disagreements they had with each other about how to bury or worship. I think it's even more possible that at that early stage, there weren't real disagreements. Things would simply seem obvious.


I doubt they would seem obvious, but given that (a) this would likely have been animism of some sort and (b) there would be few dogmas or rigidly established protocols or formality to any of it, there would be little room for disagreement.



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28 May 2012, 6:00 pm

Rocky wrote:
Kraichgauer wrote:
While I still hold to my Lutheranism I was raised with, I am not about to deny the validity of evolution, as there is too much evidence for it's existence. I guess you can put me down as believing in a divinely guided evolution.

-Bill, otherwise known as Kraichgauer


Its hard for me to think up any conceivable reason why an all powerful god would bother with such a long, complicated process.

He's not in any hurry. He wants to be with us even though he is completely self-sufficient without us.


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ruveyn
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28 May 2012, 8:01 pm

John_Browning wrote:
He's not in any hurry. He wants to be with us even though he is completely self-sufficient without us.


Did God tell you this personally?

ruveyn



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28 May 2012, 8:29 pm

Alien100 wrote:
Race to me is the result of climate, the hotter your area, the darker you are. Black people for instance have rougher hair texture, is that not some traces of evolution? If evolution didn't exist, there wouldn't be any need for different races, different breeds of animals, we evolve at a rate based off that current environment.

I can't hope to respond to the whole thing, but this really caught my attention.

This sounds to me like a misunderstanding of what classic evolution is. Your environment does not "make" you what you are. It selects you according to certain traits as to whether you're going to actually survive. If race was the result of climate, then all the descendants of black slaves who migrated to Chicago should have started turning white.

What evolution actually says is that African blacks survived predominantly in Africa predominantly as a result of their better adaptivity to harsher, hotter climates, while white skinned human adapted better to colder climates with wider variation. Reality seems to be that sub-Saharan Africans are themselves numerous diverse races every bit as much as pale Europeans are diverse races. I mean, even within the British peoples you historically have distinct ethnic groups like Angles, Saxons, Celts (and their various split-offs), Welsh, Cornish... And if you trace those groups back far enough, you'll probably find that they represent a coalescence of other distinct races. Doesn't matter what race you are, we're all mutts who descended from other mutts.

What's lovely is the large genetic diversity it's given us and the ability to survive in extreme conditions. We've even figured out how to survive in outer space, something technically possible for anyone if only a reality for a chosen few.

But I don't credit the environment for MAKING us who/what we are. It just selects who is most likely to find himself welcome in any given environment.

Also, evolution doesn't really touch origins hypotheses, which I think is a shame. I'd find it a lot more convincing if it did, but so far life origins remain a mystery. About the best guess as to life getting here so quickly is that protein polymers formed in space and survived an impact with the earth soon after the crust cooled.

Oddly enough, Christians already believe that life has its origins off-world.

In regards to evolution and religion, what fascinates me is that evolution seems to have predominantly selected the faithful for survival.