Aspergers Subtypes --The Rationale-Dependent Aspergers Child

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Deinonychus
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06 Jul 2012, 3:30 pm

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postcards57, I don't understand. Are there people who challenge rules to undermine authority or to manipulate others. Why do they do that? I challenge rules to fully understand and integrate them myself. If I spot inconsistencies to someone's rules I will call them out on it.


Yes, I agree with Ettina. And it is not only psychopaths. Some people who are narcissistic or simply over-confident feel a need to challenge any kind of authority by questioning what is said.

If my other children say "Why do I have to do that?" it is often because they are resentful of the request, not because they want to understand. If my students ask "What is the point of this assignment?" it is because they think it is pointless. My reaction is generally defensive, and I have had to learn to get over it by assuming they are simply asking the question awkwardly. If they were conscious of this, they would either use that type of question as a challenge to my right to make the request, which is how it sounds to me, or they would change their question to: "Could you explain the goal of this assignment?" which is the polite way to ask for understanding.

I tell my children that there is a distinction between "asking a question" and "questioning." In empathetic communication practices, I avoid asking why someone did something, as this sounds as though I do not approve of his actions.

Hope this helps,
J.



InThisTogether
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06 Jul 2012, 9:35 pm

My son is like this. It often looks like he is arguing with adults, but I know he really isn't. I think for him it is a combination of something being logical and also having it conform to his understanding of justice and truthfulness. He gets tripped up when he doesn't understand the logic, when he thinks something is not just or equitable, or when he thinks something is dishonest.

I wonder if it is related to another one of his "quirks." He repeatedly corrects people when they are factually mistaken and he cannot really grasp why this annoys people, especially teachers. When I tell him "adults generally don't like to be corrected by children" he will say "well, how else will they know they are wrong? I am only trying to help!"



DesertWitch
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02 Sep 2019, 9:10 am

Some of the replies on that article made my blood boil. They essentially amounted to "God's put me in charge of you and you don't get to question Mah Authoriteh!" My mother, who has narcissistic personality disorder (what kind of God would pair up an aspie girl with a mother like that, anyway?) violetly resented any challenge to her authority over me and my questioning the reason for anything was viewed as bad behavior. I learned to mostly keep my mouth shut until I was old enough to move out and go no contact.

Parents reading this, you are not god, if there even is one. Your children are entitled to a respectful explanation about the "why's" of what you insist on. If you can't come up with a reasonable answer, and "because I said so" is, frankly, a dick answer. Parent's on power trips annoythe s**t out of me.



eikonabridge
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02 Sep 2019, 2:19 pm

DesertWitch wrote:
Some of the replies on that article made my blood boil.

Ha. You've revived an old thread.

A few years ago, this parent board was infested with quite a few MSBP parents. (MSBP = Munchausen Syndrome By Proxy). They would write publicly about the violent episodes of their children, how they had to call the police, and they would compare the list of drugs to use on their children. And with each episode, things became more and more dramatic and more violent. Of course, none of that was sustainable in the long term. I am so glad all those parents are gone, now.

Why would anyone badmouth their children, publicly? Well, you have to understand how MSBP works. These parents were here to gather praises and sympathies. That was their goal. Unfortunately, all too many forum regulars fell into the trap of these parents. You would see opening lines from many people praising these parents, giving them compliments and sympathy, saying things like: "You are doing a great job. I can't imagine how hard it must have been for you,..." etc. Huh? Don't people know anything about Munchausen by proxy? It was like adding fuel to fire.

I, instead, write everything for my children to read. Yep, my daughter has read my messages here quite often, and sometimes frankly sits right next to me when I type up my messages. How is it possible that I can do that? Because I always look at my children as equal-rights fellow human beings.

The most important thing children need to keep in mind is: acquiring skills. Only by acquiring skills, can you become independent, and carry a life with dignity.

You want to know how many people have laughed at me? What kinds of names they have called me? Where are all those people today, huh? I have prevailed not because I was better at arguing with people. I have prevailed because of my skills. I just never stopped learning. People get stuck at their level. I kept climbing up.

So, my advise to all young people is: never stop learning. Respect only comes when you've got some real skills inside.


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eikonabridge
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02 Sep 2019, 6:01 pm

DesertWitch wrote:
Some of the replies on that article made my blood boil. They essentially amounted to 'God's put me in charge of you and you don't get to question Mah Authoriteh!'

You were probably referring to this reply to the linked article? I have colored some keywords in red.

•Anonymous said… the "authority" thing is difficult for them and even more so if you get into a big discussion. "I am an adult; it is my job to job to designate house-rules- God's design- My Home"; "your job is to follow them with a cheerful heart". Once that is stated, it is not to be discussed again; use a simple phrase and extinguish using picture cards for "your role" and "my role"...giving them authority over other situations will curb the desire to argue everything. Build choices within non-choices and be mindful how you phrase things...do not say "DO YOU WANNA ___________?" or "Don't you wanna _______________?"...that is a choice, but rather, these are the chores - chore chart - do you want to do a or b...but something will be done. To recap, do not negotiate... explain roles and be consistent. Use visuals, use praise and catch them doing what's right-be specific..."I like the way you _________________". Use positive reinforcers and start where the child is at i.e., if the child can help clean up for five minutes increase a bit each time. Extinguish unwanted behaviors by a) naming it and b) fading... i.e., it is not time for "discussion" - flip card over and re-direct...other times, it is ok to "discuss", but you will set the limits. Also, make sure sensory issues are not the blame i.e., my son cannot tolerate the feel of clothes so laundry is not going to be a good fit for him...etc... If the child has been running the show, it is going to take a while to undo the negative, unwanted behaviors and everyone - adults - must be on the same page, using the same language and purposefully ignoring as much as possible. Three weeks to make or break a habit...may get worse before it gets better... tantrums result in going to "calm down" again, no reinforcement - eye contact, discussion, etc - until the child is quiet/calm, count to three and then release fro m "calm down"...eventually they will self regulate and put themselves in calm down.

Makes you wonder whether this parent was training a circus animal, or dealing with another human being. Gee, how come the parent was so unable to think what happens when someone else uses the same jargon on the parent themself? I wonder when the child grows up, what his/her reaction would be knowing that the parent was so manipulative. Compare all this to:http://www.eikonabridge.com/fun_and_facts.pdf, and people will see why I have no problem whatsoever letting my children read all my writings. There is another way of raising autistic children, by treating them as equal-rights fellow human beings.

Anyway, none of that matters. What matters, as I say, is to acquire skills. That should be the focus of young people.


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magz
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03 Sep 2019, 2:21 am

I hope we won't be scourned for necrothreading but I think you raised an important point:

A lot of parents really do expect their children to be performing circus animals to show off instead of future independent members of the society.

It's a thing wrong with our parenting culture, not related to autism per se but impacting autistic children dramatically.


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GiantHockeyFan
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03 Sep 2019, 10:55 am

InThisTogether wrote:
I wonder if it is related to another one of his "quirks." He repeatedly corrects people when they are factually mistaken and he cannot really grasp why this annoys people, especially teachers. When I tell him "adults generally don't like to be corrected by children" he will say "well, how else will they know they are wrong? I am only trying to help!"


I wish more children would correct my factual mistakes. If adults don't want to be annoyed don't give out false information! I think it's important for children to know that teachers are not Gods and can be mistaken.



cubedemon6073
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03 Sep 2019, 10:13 pm

eikonabridge wrote:
DesertWitch wrote:
Some of the replies on that article made my blood boil. They essentially amounted to 'God's put me in charge of you and you don't get to question Mah Authoriteh!'

You were probably referring to this reply to the linked article? I have colored some keywords in red.

•Anonymous said… the "authority" thing is difficult for them and even more so if you get into a big discussion. "I am an adult; it is my job to job to designate house-rules- God's design- My Home"; "your job is to follow them with a cheerful heart". Once that is stated, it is not to be discussed again; use a simple phrase and extinguish using picture cards for "your role" and "my role"...giving them authority over other situations will curb the desire to argue everything. Build choices within non-choices and be mindful how you phrase things...do not say "DO YOU WANNA ___________?" or "Don't you wanna _______________?"...that is a choice, but rather, these are the chores - chore chart - do you want to do a or b...but something will be done. To recap, do not negotiate... explain roles and be consistent. Use visuals, use praise and catch them doing what's right-be specific..."I like the way you _________________". Use positive reinforcers and start where the child is at i.e., if the child can help clean up for five minutes increase a bit each time. Extinguish unwanted behaviors by a) naming it and b) fading... i.e., it is not time for "discussion" - flip card over and re-direct...other times, it is ok to "discuss", but you will set the limits. Also, make sure sensory issues are not the blame i.e., my son cannot tolerate the feel of clothes so laundry is not going to be a good fit for him...etc... If the child has been running the show, it is going to take a while to undo the negative, unwanted behaviors and everyone - adults - must be on the same page, using the same language and purposefully ignoring as much as possible. Three weeks to make or break a habit...may get worse before it gets better... tantrums result in going to "calm down" again, no reinforcement - eye contact, discussion, etc - until the child is quiet/calm, count to three and then release fro m "calm down"...eventually they will self regulate and put themselves in calm down.

Makes you wonder whether this parent was training a circus animal, or dealing with another human being. Gee, how come the parent was so unable to think what happens when someone else uses the same jargon on the parent themself? I wonder when the child grows up, what his/her reaction would be knowing that the parent was so manipulative. Compare all this to:http://www.eikonabridge.com/fun_and_facts.pdf, and people will see why I have no problem whatsoever letting my children read all my writings. There is another way of raising autistic children, by treating them as equal-rights fellow human beings.

Anyway, none of that matters. What matters, as I say, is to acquire skills. That should be the focus of young people.



I do agree about the phrasing into a choice part. I've always hated when people presented something as a choice when something is not. If it is a requirement then please state so.

I have issues with the whole doing chores under a cheerful heart. I believe she gets that from this verse from the Bible. She's paying more attention to the "for God loves a cheerful giver part."

2 Corinthians 9:6-7 English Standard Version (ESV)

The Cheerful Giver
6 The point is this: whoever sows sparingly will also reap sparingly, and whoever sows bountifully[a] will also reap bountifully. 7 Each one must give as he has decided in his heart, not reluctantly or under compulsion, for God loves a cheerful giver.

How can this child have a cheerful heart and/or be a cheerful giver if this child is made to do these chores under compulsion and he deep down does not want to do them? He can't have the cheerful heart for doing chores if this parent is compelling him to do chores.



magz
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04 Sep 2019, 2:08 am

eikonabridge wrote:
•Anonymous said… the "authority" thing is difficult for them and even more so if you get into a big discussion. "I am an adult; it is my job to job to designate house-rules- God's design- My Home"; "your job is to follow them with a cheerful heart". Once that is stated, it is not to be discussed again

Thougth control. Feeling control. No room not only to express self but even to learn to recognize one's self.
It's called emotional abuse and it is a very serious issue.
No wonder autistic children after this kind of upbringing end up with a large palette of mental illnesses.


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