Initial attraction: Beta Male Body Language

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hyperlexian
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29 Jun 2012, 2:35 pm

TM wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
i don't rank myself, and by extension i do not rank others either. i was with one man in a FWB situation, and he said he didn't understand why i chose to be with him as opposed to some other guy, because he perceived himself to be low status. i think his perception of status (and his placement on the totem pole, according to himself) actually inhibited his chances with women.

*cue people telling me i am different from other women because of _X_ reasons*


I don't think you're different from other women, you are just as self-deluded as most women are. Your guy's valuation either of himself or you was off, he either ranked himself to low (overly self-critical or not adjusted for context) or ranked you too highly (putting a woman on a pedestal) both quite common and more likely than not it was a combination of the two.

If we use a classic 1 - 10 scale, our internal valuation method adjusts for opportunity. In effect, what's a 10 in let's say Detroit, may be a 6 in LA, or what's a 3 in Toronto, may be an 8 in Alaska. It's all relative to what you have access to.

no, i am not actually deluded (nor are most women). what a strange thing for you to say. i suppose if you cannot reasonably argue with someone, it is easier to simply call them delusional.

what you said about the guy somehow valuing me incorrectly makes no sense considering that you undermined your own point. fact is, there isn't any sort of universal ranking system - not even in a closed group. if you ask 2 people to rank a group of individuals, they will come up with different rankings. and a sociologist found that people's rankings changed when they got to know each other.

a person who chooses mates primarily according to the supposed rank on first sight is highly likely to fail miserably because that sort of shallow valuation doesn't take other people into account as human beings with other facets. in the case of the guy i was sexing, his belief that he was somehow beneath me meant that he lacked self-confidence around the same women who would actually be interested in him.

at first, he treated me with suspicion and distance when i approached him, because he thought i was having a laugh. not that women had done that to him before, but he thought so little of himself (stemming from ill treatment from his parents, for the most part) that he hamstrung his own chances.

so he aimed for women that he didn't really find that attractive because he thought he couldn't really have anyone else. but THOSE women sensed he was "settling" for them and they rejected him. it was a horrible cycle and i suspect he is still embroiled in it several years later.


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TM
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29 Jun 2012, 3:07 pm

Quote:

no, i am not actually deluded (nor are most women). what a strange thing for you to say. i suppose if you cannot reasonably argue with someone, it is easier to simply call them delusional.

what you said about the guy somehow valuing me incorrectly makes no sense considering that you undermined your own point. fact is, there isn't any sort of universal ranking system - not even in a closed group. if you ask 2 people to rank a group of individuals, they will come up with different rankings. and a sociologist found that people's rankings changed when they got to know each other.


Of course rankings change, hence why they are relative. Does "comparative evaluation of potential partners" sound more palatable to you? If you do not do some form of ranking in this manner, then you would have no way to distinguish between multiple options when it comes to a partner.

Quote:
a person who chooses mates primarily according to the supposed rank on first sight is highly likely to fail miserably because that sort of shallow valuation doesn't take other people into account as human beings with other facets. in the case of the guy i was sexing, his belief that he was somehow beneath me meant that he lacked self-confidence around the same women who would actually be interested in him.


If a person isn't attractive at first sight, the odds of a person approaching them is very small, hence they do not add the additional "personality factor" into the equation at all. Most people are not likely to initiate a relationship with someone if they do not find them physically attractive at all. They may do so if they rank the person within their accepted deviation but not if they are not attracted to them at all.

In the case of your guy, he either valued himself to be beneath women of comparable values, or valued women of a comparable value at too high a level.

Let's say he was a 4, and you're a 4, he may value himself as a 2, and you as a 6.



hyperlexian
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29 Jun 2012, 3:15 pm

i don't sort through people like items in a bargain bin when i am choosing who i want to date - there isn't any BEST option. there are human being who i may be more or less compatible with, or who i may have stronger feelings for. that is all. so i do not comparatively value them as you have suggested. in fact, i don't have any reason to believe that most people do.

most relationships do not start on the basis of initial attraction leading to approach, etc. most relationships build over time, through friendship or acquaintance. so it is not necessary to rank people on appearance alone.

that guy had a massed up idea of how to decide which women to date, so he made some awkward choices that led to loneliness. ranking people and making dating decisions based on those ranks is not likely to be a viable strategy.

frankly, EVERYONE wants to feel like a prize for someone. if a person is not dating someone that they believe is the peak of awesomeness then they are doing themselves (and their partner) a disservice. but they also need to feel worthy of that prize, or it will be wasted on them.


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29 Jun 2012, 3:40 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
i don't sort through people like items in a bargain bin when i am choosing who i want to date - there isn't any BEST option. there are human being who i may be more or less compatible with, or who i may have stronger feelings for. that is all. so i do not comparatively value them as you have suggested. in fact, i don't have any reason to believe that most people do.


Of course there is a best option, that's the person you end up dating. Otherwise, you're saying that there are a lot of equal, but different options, which says more about your standards for whom you date.

Quote:
most relationships do not start on the basis of initial attraction leading to approach, etc. most relationships build over time, through friendship or acquaintance. so it is not necessary to rank people on appearance alone.


They either start with initial attraction or delayed attraction caused by parameter changes.



hyperlexian
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29 Jun 2012, 3:45 pm

no, there need not be any initial attraction, because it can and does build over time (for both men and women). but that involves getting to know them over a long period, which does not seem to be your aim based on your support of PUA techniques. parameters do not have to change, but once people get to know each other better they become attracted.

there are different yet equal options, yes. people are individuals and each are worthy. however, worthiness does not equal attraction.


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29 Jun 2012, 8:09 pm

hyperlexian wrote:
i don't rank myself, and by extension i do not rank others either.

Ditto.
THIS is the big fat "secret" of self-esteem.
...
hyperlexian wrote:
i think his perception of status (and his placement on the totem pole, according to himself) actually inhibited his chances with women.

I have found this to be virtually always true of ppl who do "rank" themselves. (Even the ones claiming/pretending high self-status.)
It's heart breaking to see, and you can see it everywhere. So don't do this.
It's a lie. If you're gonna lie to yourself at least try to be kind to yourself.
___________________________________________

This is it, and this is all - Don't rank anyone, especially not yourself.
___________________________________________

hyperlexian said it in a way I wish I could've. Good job you!
This can be really hard, but if you find yourself looking for all those tricks, clues, signs and most especially sayin "yeah-but", you are avoiding the hard thing.

...
hyperlexian wrote:
*cue people telling me i am different from other women because of _X_ reasons*

You're different from other women because:
you're eXcellently talented w/your eye . . . stuff,
artisXically counter-pointed by your glasses,
and dramatically eXotic with your picture composition.

or...

ur rokkn at pikn k3w1 piX on teh interwebz.


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1401b
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29 Jun 2012, 8:28 pm

BTW
Isn't "PUA techniques" just another phrase for Social Tools?
Most especially for "Small Talk" that don't flop?

Maybe that's why ppl are having a hard time with it.
Having a hammer doesn't mean having a talent.
And vice-versa.

Nothing about dogs.
Dogs are cool.
Alphas, betas, chows, even omegas -everybody loves dogs. (except those that don't, of course)

Bean a dog is an awesome way to meet women.


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TM
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29 Jun 2012, 8:48 pm

1401b wrote:
BTW
Isn't "PUA techniques" just another phrase for Social Tools?
Most especially for "Small Talk" that don't flop?

Maybe that's why ppl are having a hard time with it.
Having a hammer doesn't mean having a talent.
And vice-versa.

Nothing about dogs.
Dogs are cool.
Alphas, betas, chows, even omegas -everybody loves dogs. (except those that don't, of course)

Bean a dog is an awesome way to meet women.


PUA is misunderstood in many ways. If you look at the Mystery method, what it more or less give you tools to better yourself in social interaction. You get good ways to open a conversation with strangers, and to keep that conversation going. Both in terms of what to say and how to behave. For a person who may tend to "blank out" when approaching a stranger, having let's say "Hey, my friend and I are having an argument, who lies more, men or women?" rote learned into your head, along with a suitable follow up or two helps the person get over that part.

There are things like negs, that can be questionable if used against the "wrong" target or in the wrong way. As an example, "I love that scarf, where did you buy it, I want to get my grandmother one for Christmas!" is different from "You sweat little for a fat girl".

For someone who has a fear of rejection, it can help to "build" a persona at first since that protects their "self" from rejection, thus preventing them from breaking down and crying in the fetal position in the shower for days on end.

David Deangelo has a different approach, which much more goes into things like dressing for the situation you are going to be in (IE no leather jackets and combat boots at the beach), personal grooming, positive mindsets and things like that.

Some Pick-up artists lie, but then again non-pick up artists lie as well. I believe the statistic was one lie per 10 minutes of conversation on average, and that's not just in a "trying to pick someone up" context.



hyperlexian
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29 Jun 2012, 10:49 pm

1401b wrote:
hyperlexian wrote:
i don't rank myself, and by extension i do not rank others either.

Ditto.
THIS is the big fat "secret" of self-esteem.
...
hyperlexian wrote:
i think his perception of status (and his placement on the totem pole, according to himself) actually inhibited his chances with women.

I have found this to be virtually always true of ppl who do "rank" themselves. (Even the ones claiming/pretending high self-status.)
It's heart breaking to see, and you can see it everywhere. So don't do this.
It's a lie. If you're gonna lie to yourself at least try to be kind to yourself.
___________________________________________

This is it, and this is all - Don't rank anyone, especially not yourself.
___________________________________________

hyperlexian said it in a way I wish I could've. Good job you!
This can be really hard, but if you find yourself looking for all those tricks, clues, signs and most especially sayin "yeah-but", you are avoiding the hard thing.

...
hyperlexian wrote:
*cue people telling me i am different from other women because of _X_ reasons*

You're different from other women because:
you're eXcellently talented w/your eye . . . stuff,
artisXically counter-pointed by your glasses,
and dramatically eXotic with your picture composition.

or...

ur rokkn at pikn k3w1 piX on teh interwebz.

you are kind, thank you!!!i am really like anyone else, i think.


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1000Knives
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29 Jun 2012, 11:12 pm

TM wrote:
1401b wrote:
BTW
Isn't "PUA techniques" just another phrase for Social Tools?
Most especially for "Small Talk" that don't flop?

Maybe that's why ppl are having a hard time with it.
Having a hammer doesn't mean having a talent.
And vice-versa.

Nothing about dogs.
Dogs are cool.
Alphas, betas, chows, even omegas -everybody loves dogs. (except those that don't, of course)

Bean a dog is an awesome way to meet women.



There are things like negs, that can be questionable if used against the "wrong" target or in the wrong way. As an example, "I love that scarf, where did you buy it, I want to get my grandmother one for Christmas!" is different from "You sweat little for a fat girl".



The latter sounds like a "3% Speech" option from Fallout.



Shau
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30 Jun 2012, 1:26 am

Or a dialogue option for Renegade Shep!


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1000Knives
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01 Jul 2012, 11:35 am

Deleted by TallyMan



MXH
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01 Jul 2012, 11:38 am

thats probably the most true thing ive read in this thread



edgewaters
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01 Jul 2012, 12:37 pm

You could do a similar cartoon (few changes, but similar) for a girl that's not supermodel material. Society at large is shallow, doesn't matter who you are.



TM
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01 Jul 2012, 1:35 pm

edgewaters wrote:
You could do a similar cartoon (few changes, but similar) for a girl that's not supermodel material. Society at large is shallow, doesn't matter who you are.


Is it easier for a girl to get laid than a guy? Please note that this is a simple yes and no question.



Last edited by TM on 02 Jul 2012, 2:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.