14 dead and 50 injured in mass shooting in Colorado.

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John_Browning
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05 Aug 2012, 1:21 am

aghogday wrote:
http://archives.gunsandammo.com/content/mental-illness-and-gun-ownership?page=1

Quote:
After a prospective gun buyer completes the federal and state gun-purchase applications, the gun dealer normally picks up the phone and calls the FBI or the state police. He requests that the gun purchaser's name be checked against the data contained in the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). While the NICS criminal-record database is considered to be reasonably accurate and up to date, the same cannot be said for the NICS records of involuntary mental hospital commitments.

There are an estimated 3 million living Americans who have been involuntarily committed to mental institutions. The NICS database only contains the names of about 90,000 of these individuals. There are only 17 states that provide information on involuntary commitment for inclusion in the NICS database. Many of the noncompliant states simply have not computerized their records on involuntary commitment. However, a large number of the noncompliant states are also grappling with serious health-information privacy issues and are reluctant to provide the required data to NICS before these issues are resolved.

Under the federal Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, mental health records may only be released to medical professionals, health insurance workers and quality-control personnel. Ohio's attorney general has not yet determined how to gain access to the medical records needed to process CCW applications. Because Ohio has a relatively new CCW law, sheriffs are being asked to assist temporarily in checking courthouse records for involuntary-commitment orders. This exercise is both time-consuming and labor-intensive. It's also unlikely to produce all of the information needed to verify the accuracy of answers provided on Ohio CCW permit applications.


And the article goes on to state, that it is not necessarily the individuals who are involuntarily committed that may among subgroups of individuals with mental illness that are at a greater risk to own a firearm, per potential danger to others. However obviously they may be more of danger to themselves.

Considering the NCIS only has access to less than 4 percent of the records, it's a pretty good bet that there are many individuals that have answered no that have been involuntarily committed, that have been successful in purchasing a firearm, background check.

Almost impossible that all mental health records could be checked without incredible administrative expense to make that happen, as over 20% of individuals in the US are diagnosed with a mental illness at any time, and there is not even an acceptable identified way to gain access to those records.

As the article states, it is left to family to control the situation, where family is most often the victim of the violence, when it occurs. Not many good answers in the mental health arena. Not even for current ineffective mental health competency checks that have been provided for decades; the reliance of verification has and continues to be subject mostly to the honesty of the applicant.

The bulk of the article talks about those committed being no more than slightly (if at all) more likely to commit violence, that court ordered commitment is statistically insignificant in overall violent crime statistics, the most dangerous people are hardest to spot, and that there is a ton of legal and constitutional issues in determining who is mentally ill enough to ban from owning guns and how to do so without any civil rights violations.


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TallyMan
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05 Aug 2012, 3:02 am

(Thread moved from News and Current events to PPR)

WARNING: If there is a resumption of the personal attacks earlier in this thread expect sanctions to be imposed on those doing so. Keep the conversation civil folks (or else).



aghogday
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05 Aug 2012, 6:35 am

John_Browning wrote:
aghogday wrote:
http://archives.gunsandammo.com/content/mental-illness-and-gun-ownership?page=1

Quote:
After a prospective gun buyer completes the federal and state gun-purchase applications, the gun dealer normally picks up the phone and calls the FBI or the state police. He requests that the gun purchaser's name be checked against the data contained in the National Instant Criminal Background Check System (NICS). While the NICS criminal-record database is considered to be reasonably accurate and up to date, the same cannot be said for the NICS records of involuntary mental hospital commitments.

There are an estimated 3 million living Americans who have been involuntarily committed to mental institutions. The NICS database only contains the names of about 90,000 of these individuals. There are only 17 states that provide information on involuntary commitment for inclusion in the NICS database. Many of the noncompliant states simply have not computerized their records on involuntary commitment. However, a large number of the noncompliant states are also grappling with serious health-information privacy issues and are reluctant to provide the required data to NICS before these issues are resolved.

Under the federal Health Insurance Portability and Accountability Act, mental health records may only be released to medical professionals, health insurance workers and quality-control personnel. Ohio's attorney general has not yet determined how to gain access to the medical records needed to process CCW applications. Because Ohio has a relatively new CCW law, sheriffs are being asked to assist temporarily in checking courthouse records for involuntary-commitment orders. This exercise is both time-consuming and labor-intensive. It's also unlikely to produce all of the information needed to verify the accuracy of answers provided on Ohio CCW permit applications.


And the article goes on to state, that it is not necessarily the individuals who are involuntarily committed that may among subgroups of individuals with mental illness that are at a greater risk to own a firearm, per potential danger to others. However obviously they may be more of danger to themselves.

Considering the NCIS only has access to less than 4 percent of the records, it's a pretty good bet that there are many individuals that have answered no that have been involuntarily committed, that have been successful in purchasing a firearm, background check.

Almost impossible that all mental health records could be checked without incredible administrative expense to make that happen, as over 20% of individuals in the US are diagnosed with a mental illness at any time, and there is not even an acceptable identified way to gain access to those records.

As the article states, it is left to family to control the situation, where family is most often the victim of the violence, when it occurs. Not many good answers in the mental health arena. Not even for current ineffective mental health competency checks that have been provided for decades; the reliance of verification has and continues to be subject mostly to the honesty of the applicant.

The bulk of the article talks about those committed being no more than slightly (if at all) more likely to commit violence, that court ordered commitment is statistically insignificant in overall violent crime statistics, the most dangerous people are hardest to spot, and that there is a ton of legal and constitutional issues in determining who is mentally ill enough to ban from owning guns and how to do so without any civil rights violations.


I agree, I was surprised though that less than 5% of mental health records were accessible, that's bad because the danger is definitely one more likely of suicide, if a gun is readily available for those that have been committed, as an involuntary commitment. It is much more often a result of suicidal ideation or actions, rather than harm toward others.

It is no wonder that the statistics do not sway in the overall direction of violence toward others among these individuals studied. But, the article was definitely not a gun control biased source, so one would not expect for them to bring up that 800LB gorilla in the room of suicide and access to guns, as that is a major reason for the restriction to purchase firearms, for those that have been committed.

With the increased privacy act restrictions to medical records, not likely that is going to change, for other mental health conditions, although it is the one area that democrats seem comfortable to pursue. It's definitely a good idea, for the safety of those at risk for suicide to improve what exists now, per the actual potential of checking records.



Anarbaculardrop
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05 Aug 2012, 1:07 pm

About the Fast and Furious thing, you NRA git...

That was about selling guns to Mexican Cartels(guys who can detect a bug better than you can), not some crazy man with a brain tumor or a less careful person.

Also, adding a lie-detector(which almost always works) would make their intentions come out, as well as force them to pass the test without cheating.

Also, Global Warming is real! I hope you drown in the storm you created from the lack of solar panels and other, much more efficient sources than oil due to that idiot Romney! And if you think they will help you, well...this fool doesn't help you in the slightest.


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JakobVirgil
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05 Aug 2012, 2:28 pm

Anarbaculardrop wrote:

Also, adding a lie-detector(which almost always works) would make their intentions come out, as well as force them to pass the test without cheating.


the polygraph is a party game there is a reason it is not admissible in court.

the rest of what you said sounds fine.


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RICKY5
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18 Aug 2012, 6:26 pm

Apparently the psychiatrist called the cops on Holmes because she believed he was an imminent danger and,,,,THE COPS DID NOTHING.

So much for that lie the gun prohibitionists tell us that the police will save us.



AceOfSpades
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18 Aug 2012, 6:41 pm

TallyMan wrote:
(Thread moved from News and Current events to PPR)

WARNING: If there is a resumption of the personal attacks earlier in this thread expect sanctions to be imposed on those doing so. Keep the conversation civil folks (or else).
Anarbaculardrop wrote:
About the Fast and Furious thing, you NRA git...

That was about selling guns to Mexican Cartels(guys who can detect a bug better than you can), not some crazy man with a brain tumor or a less careful person.

Also, adding a lie-detector(which almost always works) would make their intentions come out, as well as force them to pass the test without cheating.

Also, Global Warming is real! I hope you drown in the storm you created from the lack of solar panels and other, much more efficient sources than oil due to that idiot Romney! And if you think they will help you, well...this fool doesn't help you in the slightest.
Someone obviously didn't get the message.