Is AS somehow linked to Narcissistic PD?

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Sweetleaf
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23 Jul 2012, 9:38 am

I think it is possible to have both Aspergers and Narcissistic PD, I am pretty convinced my mom and most of her side of the family at least have traits of Narcissistic PD. Hence the reason I don't exactly enjoy being around them very much.


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Dillogic
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23 Jul 2012, 9:39 am

Being nice to someone to get what you want is manipulation, yes, and that is showing skill in the social realm (also dishonest behavior). Which manipulation is (using skill to gain something). Personally, with the skill involved plus the dishonest intentions, I see it hard for someone who is socially impaired that practices honest behavior to do such (people with AS being hyper-focused on rules).

I'd say it's most likely that we'd be the ones manipulated.



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23 Jul 2012, 9:47 am

Dillogic wrote:
Being nice to someone to get what you want is manipulation, yes, and that is showing skill in the social realm (also dishonest behavior). Which manipulation is (using skill to gain something). Personally, with the skill involved plus the dishonest intentions, I see it hard for someone who is socially impaired that practices honest behavior to do such (people with AS being hyper-focused on rules).

I'd say it's most likely that we'd be the ones manipulated.


hyper-focused on rules huh? I don't feel that way there are lots of rules I break...But anyways I have done things for people before asking if they'll help with something or whatever, but that is more because I feel like if I expect anyone to help me out I should be willing to do the same.


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Verdandi
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23 Jul 2012, 9:56 am

Dillogic wrote:
Being nice to someone to get what you want is manipulation, yes, and that is showing skill in the social realm (also dishonest behavior). Which manipulation is (using skill to gain something). Personally, with the skill involved plus the dishonest intentions, I see it hard for someone who is socially impaired that practices honest behavior to do such (people with AS being hyper-focused on rules).

I'd say it's most likely that we'd be the ones manipulated.


I guess this is where I just shrug and say not all autistic people are the same. Not all autistic people are rigorously honest, and not every autistic person takes every single rule to heart.

I think you are right that autistic people are more likely to be manipulated, but I do not think that the nature of autistic impairment completely rules out being manipulative. I also do not see why you keep trying to link skill with the whole thing. No one has to be skilled to attempt to do something (badly). In fact, it's entirely possible that many autistic people perceive their social skills as better than they actually are because the social impairment impairs one's ability to see where one is making mistakes or unable to perceive what NTs perceive.



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23 Jul 2012, 9:59 am

lady_katie wrote:
I've been reading around the internet that some people believe that people with NPD actually have AS but have been misdiagnosed.


I thought about that.

I've been reading that some experts believe schizoid PD and autism are the same thing.
Some believe schizotypal PD and autism are the same thing.
Some believe that schizophrenia, bipolar and autism are connected.
Some believe that ADHD and Autism are one spectrum.
Some believe that a lot of autistics are missdiagnosed as being schizophrenic or borderline.
Some believe that people with OCD, sozial anxiety disorder, lerning disorder etc. have more often autistic traits or even are on the autism spectrum.
And now even NPD and AS is suppesed to be the same thing? :roll:


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Verdandi
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23 Jul 2012, 10:06 am

Raziel wrote:
lady_katie wrote:
I've been reading around the internet that some people believe that people with NPD actually have AS but have been misdiagnosed.


I thought about that.

I've been reading that some experts believe schizoid PD and autism are the same thing.
Some believe schizotypal PD and autism are the same thing.
Some believe that schizophrenia, bipolar and autism are connected.
Some believe that ADHD and Autism are one spectrum.
Some believe that a lot of autistics are missdiagnosed as being schizophrenic or borderline.
Some believe that people with OCD, sozial anxiety disorder, lerning disorder etc. have more often autistic traits or even are on the autism spectrum.
And now even NPD and AS is suppesed to be the same thing? :roll:


Pretty soon, we'll just have "neurological disorder" and "neurological disorder - not otherwise specified"



Dillogic
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23 Jul 2012, 10:08 am

RE: rules,

I'm just going by my experience and Cohen's book "The Science of Evil", where he states people with AS tend to be very rule orientated [to make sense of the world], which is why their impairments in empathy don't manifest "badly". It explains my perception of things (rule based), so I go with it.

You can also say that it likely requires too much social thought to manipulate others, even if the actual procedure is understood (which is just cause and effect). Seems like it'd just be easier to do it yourself than to take all of the effort to go and manipulate someone to do if for you, for example.

I guess tantrums come under manipulation, but they don't seem all that skillful to me (or dishonest). Babies cry when they're hungry.

I also guess that it's just too alien to me to comprehend*; that's the skillful form of.

*I still don't understand why people lie for selfish gain.



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23 Jul 2012, 10:13 am

Having encountered several narcissists throughout my personal life, I can highlight some of their behaviors. Narcissism is increasingly common among the desensitized TV / Video generation (Y). It's basically a result of perpetually comfortable, spoiled, and insular upbringing. It is something that is conditioned, not a systemic problem like ASD.

- The narcissist personality preys most naturally on nice people, especially people-pleasers or those with low self-esteem.

- Narcissists have an outward humor, confidence, and charm, though often of a crass nature. They feel "above" others and so are able to make careless, insensitive commentary very easily. They do it frequently, and often to amuse themselves.

- They don't actually 'care' about tragedies, or horrible things happening to others. They are indifferent to other's suffering, and have blunted emotions surrounding other people's feelings. They don't notice when they inflict callousness or emotional pain on others in pursuit of their own gratification.

- They are in constant search for gratification - physical and mental. Often they are mastrubation and/or fantasy addicts. Fantasy as in always repeating in their minds and actions, what gave them pleasure - but this also means prone to living very grandly in their own heads.

- They have no qualms about deflating your self esteem to keep you around, especially if you have money/influence/something they like. After some time around them, they begin to experiment with the limits of their crassness around you (how much you might handle), and this practice may become their currency. Long-term, it will damage you psychologically. They are esteem, emotion, and energy vampires.

- NOTHING ever makes them truly happy - which is precisely why they are in a mode of exploitative gratification. You can try to make them happy, appeased, relieved, but any efforts will be temporary, and you will likely find you have only interrupted something they were doing.

- They are always picky, always self-righteous, entitled, usually arrogant, and often have a persecution complex - justifying themselves against imaginary foes / criticisms. This is because often, a part of them knows their behavior is despicable. Most of them time they will hide behind the rationalization of them "questioning authority" or "status quo" - which of course feeds right into the superiority complex.

That's just a few things to look for. They are basically self-centered people users, who have a lot of sly tricks, charms and defenses to get what they want, and never have to take any responsibility for their despicable nature. They are a social black hole - a product of an increasingly vulgarized society.



Last edited by abyssquick on 23 Jul 2012, 10:48 am, edited 2 times in total.

Verdandi
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23 Jul 2012, 10:19 am

Dillogic wrote:
RE: rules,

I'm just going by my experience and Cohen's book "The Science of Evil", where he states people with AS tend to be very rule orientated [to make sense of the world], which is why their impairments in empathy don't manifest "badly". It explains my perception of things (rule based), so I go with it.


Cohen's book also says that BPD means zero empathy, which it does not. He has observed a tendency among autistic people to follow rules, but others have noted that at least some autistic people ignore rules that don't make sense or have a good reason behind then.

Quote:
You can also say that it likely requires too much social thought to manipulate others, even if the actual procedure is understood (which is just cause and effect). Seems like it'd just be easier to do it yourself than to take all of the effort to go and manipulate someone to do if for you, for example.


What if that thing you need to do is convince someone else to do something because they have the means and you do not? Have you ever tried to convince someone of something? To change their mind? O

Quote:
I guess tantrums come under manipulation, but they don't seem all that skillful to me (or dishonest). Babies cry when they're hungry.


Many tantrums are manipulative (not meltdowns). Skill or finess is irrelevant. It's possible to do it and just be really bad at it.



DrPenguin
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23 Jul 2012, 10:19 am

I have a tendency to manipulate others (possibly for amusement) so that it benefits them/others but would/could not do the same for my own benefit. It was a game I was taught by my great nan as a kid (i was the kid) to help others, possibly why I can read the body language relating to others a lot better than that aimed at myself. Would that fall under NPD?

PS I don't have to think I'm perfect there are dozens of people to do that for me (can't remember who said this).

I think babies and cats have it right, how many people pick up or pet a crying animal.


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redrobin62
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23 Jul 2012, 10:59 am

There was an employee at my old job that was truly narcissistic. He knew everything, had all the answers, only drank the best wines, knew what was best for all the patients (including preaching religion to them), etc. He lasted 3 months there. He tends to only last about 3 months at all jobs he goes to because he tells the bosses that they're not running their facilities right. He never understood that those are things you keep to yourself. I've always wondered if he could turn out to be one of those people who just snap, pick up a submachine gun, and go ballistic.



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23 Jul 2012, 11:24 am

Verdandi wrote:
Cohen's book also says that BPD means zero empathy, which it does not. He has observed a tendency among autistic people to follow rules, but others have noted that at least some autistic people ignore rules that don't make sense or have a good reason behind then.


I don't know much about BPD (though lots of people say those with AS have empathy; he shows that they don't), but he states that the four/five disorders show similar levels of zero empathy with his neuroimaging studies, which he supplies a lot of evidence for. Said book is actually pertinent to this thread, being as it's partly about AS and NPD; shame he didn't touch on the fact that people can have AS + a PD that has zero empathy [how he defines it].

Not following a rule because it's illogical/doesn't make sense would come under the same heading (super-logical), and it's also often due to a lack of empathy that they do break them (say the train enthusiast who plays conductor and "steals" a train; they can't see that they're doing anything wrong because they aren't intending to harm people, even though it's illegal to do such).



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23 Jul 2012, 11:32 am

I'd just like to say that I believe that the stereotype that people with AS lack empathy is generally, though not always, false. The people who made that "observation" about Aspies were NT's, and therefore probably made that assumption based on a lack of an expected facial expression, or a lack of an attempt to offer condolences to someone who is hurting. Although Aspies are prone to getting caught up in their own interests, I think that when we are calm, we are actually quite considerate. Not to speak for everyone.



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23 Jul 2012, 12:20 pm

Raziel wrote:
lady_katie wrote:
I've been reading around the internet that some people believe that people with NPD actually have AS but have been misdiagnosed.


I thought about that.

I've been reading that some experts believe schizoid PD and autism are the same thing.
Some believe schizotypal PD and autism are the same thing.
Some believe that schizophrenia, bipolar and autism are connected.
Some believe that ADHD and Autism are one spectrum.
Some believe that a lot of autistics are missdiagnosed as being schizophrenic or borderline.
Some believe that people with OCD, sozial anxiety disorder, lerning disorder etc. have more often autistic traits or even are on the autism spectrum.
And now even NPD and AS is suppesed to be the same thing? :roll:

You forgot one, some think Social Anxiety Disorder and Avoidant Personality Disorder are one spectrum. ;)


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23 Jul 2012, 12:31 pm

redrobin62 wrote:
There was an employee at my old job that was truly narcissistic. He knew everything, had all the answers, only drank the best wines, knew what was best for all the patients (including preaching religion to them), etc. He lasted 3 months there. He tends to only last about 3 months at all jobs he goes to because he tells the bosses that they're not running their facilities right. He never understood that those are things you keep to yourself. I've always wondered if he could turn out to be one of those people who just snap, pick up a submachine gun, and go ballistic.

... I know a guy like that too, it's hard to miss when the signs are so apparent.


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23 Jul 2012, 12:34 pm

abyssquick wrote:
.....
That's just a few things to look for. They are basically self-centered people users, who have a lot of sly tricks, charms and defenses to get what they want, and never have to take any responsibility for their despicable nature. They are a social black hole - a product of an increasingly vulgarized society.


That would describe all but two of my supervisors/managers over the years. It's nice to have a label to what was otherwise bizzare behavior to me. I also know a lot of young men/women in their early 20s and it seems narcissistic tendencies are VERY common.