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thewhitrbbit
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01 Aug 2012, 10:57 am

Drop big hints, big whopping hints.

For example, talk about a movie you want to see and mention you don't have anyone to go with.



MXH
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01 Aug 2012, 12:12 pm

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
this is purely anecdotal evidence so big grain of salt but
in my experience guys can be put off by an "aggressive" move on our part
you can certainly ask them out, but it helps if you let them think it was their idea
It's like we can take the initiative to set up the joke but they like to have the punchline.

that's all just my observations based on the small number 18-26 year olds from 3 continents that I've interacted with

My advice would be to drop hints that you're interested, casually mention movies you want to go see or exhibits or parks you want to go to, maybe even ask him something like "do you like me" or "are you flirting with me"

essentially, make your interest clear and give him oppurtunites, (if he's allistic)
he's knocked on the door with the flirty behavior, you can open it and ask him in, and then he has to decide to walk through the door


guys arent put off by agressive moves, they just werent interested to start with. Which by the way is what guys go through day in and out, and guess what? it sucks, but thats the way things are.



edgewaters
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01 Aug 2012, 12:37 pm

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
this is purely anecdotal evidence so big grain of salt but
in my experience guys can be put off by an "aggressive" move on our part
you can certainly ask them out, but it helps if you let them think it was their idea


Not sure where women get this idea but it's really not true. I think women get rejected a couple of times and then think, "it must be because I made the first move" but that is not why, rejection is just part and parcel of taking initiative, because you can't know ahead of time, and not everyone is going to be interested or available.

Many guys actually really like the idea. There are probably a few who don't, namely the ultra-alpha types, because of how their identity and sense of self is constructed. But that's not a terribly large portion of the male population. The one small problem though is that it can be shocking because it's unexpected and some may not know how to respond immediately, if it's a complete surprise.



mv
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01 Aug 2012, 12:54 pm

Actually, there is truth to it. You can be dating someone and if you (the woman) initiate sexually, it completely puts them (the man) off. So, though it can be a case of "I tried and was rejected, I guess men don't like women who initiate" meaning "He just wasn't that into you", there is also genuine rejection that happens from sexual intitiation within a relationship.

Maybe it's a generational thing (I'm older than most of you), but I know lots of women who have experienced this.



rosemund
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01 Aug 2012, 2:00 pm

mv wrote:
Actually, there is truth to it. You can be dating someone and if you (the woman) initiate sexually, it completely puts them (the man) off. So, though it can be a case of "I tried and was rejected, I guess men don't like women who initiate" meaning "He just wasn't that into you", there is also genuine rejection that happens from sexual intitiation within a relationship.

Maybe it's a generational thing (I'm older than most of you), but I know lots of women who have experienced this.


I've had it happen too. What's more, with the age group of 38-45, it tends to even backfire after a relationship has begun. They say they want an independent woman, but when you show that you are, they resent it due to your not acting in a way they find "normal" (which from what I've seen, translates to what I would call "needy" and "codependent"). If you initiate in a sexual way, they find you "pushy" or "demanding" for something as simple as a deep kiss. It's a major reason I quit dating guys in my age group.



MXH
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01 Aug 2012, 2:08 pm

you two are taking something very simple and making it to sound as victimizing. Because he rejected your sexual advance inside a relationship doesnt mean he was offput by you taking the initiative, it could be that 1- he wasnt in the mood (just as i bet youve told him so in the past), 2- your method of initiating put him off (happens to all of us, what I find sexy is likely not what you do. And things vary daily for everyone). 2 much more likely reasons than guys being assholes that lie about what they want, why do I say that? Because its the things that happen when you initiate. If you just take a passive role you wont understand these things, but every person that has been taking initiative always will show you why it is so.



mv
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01 Aug 2012, 3:16 pm

rosemund wrote:
mv wrote:
Actually, there is truth to it. You can be dating someone and if you (the woman) initiate sexually, it completely puts them (the man) off. So, though it can be a case of "I tried and was rejected, I guess men don't like women who initiate" meaning "He just wasn't that into you", there is also genuine rejection that happens from sexual intitiation within a relationship.

Maybe it's a generational thing (I'm older than most of you), but I know lots of women who have experienced this.


I've had it happen too. What's more, with the age group of 38-45, it tends to even backfire after a relationship has begun. They say they want an independent woman, but when you show that you are, they resent it due to your not acting in a way they find "normal" (which from what I've seen, translates to what I would call "needy" and "codependent"). If you initiate in a sexual way, they find you "pushy" or "demanding" for something as simple as a deep kiss. It's a major reason I quit dating guys in my age group.


rosemund: Yes, exactly!! ! (I'm 44, BTW) It's also complicated by the fact that as an Aspie I don't understand or internalize what their "normal" is (or that I don't fit it). But I have *definitely* encountered this, and more than once.

And MXH, in no way did I mean to say that I felt victimized, I was trying to present a more nuanced and balanced view of the world, by introducing an example that I (and many women I know) have found. I'm not sure you understand that.



MXH
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01 Aug 2012, 3:29 pm

mv wrote:
And MXH, in no way did I mean to say that I felt victimized, I was trying to present a more nuanced and balanced view of the world, by introducing an example that I (and many women I know) have found. I'm not sure you understand that.


I completely understand, but im not sure you do on what i said. im explaining how youre blaming some far fetched concept that men didnt want you because you were "independent" when in reality there are many more simpler reasons why they didnt go so well with your initiative. The thing with initiative is that rejection will feel harsher than if youre the one doing the rejection. Because you wont know why you were rejected, which can lead to silly thoughts like "its because i chased him, men must be scared of being chased". In reality most guys dream of women taking initiative. You simply got a taste of the other side and didnt like it. This isnt ignoring the risks of being totally passive either, im simply addressing the active side.



DogsWithoutHorses
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01 Aug 2012, 3:54 pm

edgewaters wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
this is purely anecdotal evidence so big grain of salt but
in my experience guys can be put off by an "aggressive" move on our part
you can certainly ask them out, but it helps if you let them think it was their idea


Not sure where women get this idea but it's really not true. I think women get rejected a couple of times and then think, "it must be because I made the first move" but that is not why, rejection is just part and parcel of taking initiative, because you can't know ahead of time, and not everyone is going to be interested or available.

Many guys actually really like the idea. There are probably a few who don't, namely the ultra-alpha types, because of how their identity and sense of self is constructed. But that's not a terribly large portion of the male population. The one small problem though is that it can be shocking because it's unexpected and some may not know how to respond immediately, if it's a complete surprise.



Oh I certainly believe that guys like the idea, in my experience they just don't go for the reality as much.
I'm "approaching" guys I take the guiding hand tac with just as much as guys I outright ask. Even a subtle advance is still going to be rejected or accepted. If a guy doesn't respond to what I'm doing, that's a rejection.
I'm still coming on to them either way, but when I let them say the words they're more comfortable.
I just think most people are more at ease when you let them stay on script.

@mv
I have noticed things like that inside relationships too
ex. If I want to go do something and I say "hey we should go do this" I get shot down
If I just talk about how neat I think it is, he'll say "hey we should go" and then we go

With sex and affection ik mine at least will give me more if I wait for him to decide he wants to. If I seem untouchable, they want to touch.

I'm not even sure if it's a gender thing or just that people in general are more attached to "their ideas"


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01 Aug 2012, 4:14 pm

You know what it could be? He might not know that YOU are into HIM. And yes, you might think you are sending signals, but because of AS, they may not be so obvious.

I've had this problem, where I really wanted this guy to ask me out, and he was sweet and all, but he didn't. So I asked him to chill, just us two, one time. The next time we met, he asked me to the movies on our first real date. We're still together, and he thought it was hot that I showed interest in him. Turns out he wasn't used to asking girls out. When I asked him about when we first met, he told me that he did not know that I liked him.



edgewaters
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01 Aug 2012, 4:46 pm

DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Oh I certainly believe that guys like the idea, in my experience they just don't go for the reality as much.
I'm "approaching" guys I take the guiding hand tac with just as much as guys I outright ask. Even a subtle advance is still going to be rejected or accepted. If a guy doesn't respond to what I'm doing, that's a rejection.
I'm still coming on to them either way, but when I let them say the words they're more comfortable.


I think it's mostly just a matter of time and preparedness. I've got to admit a complete stranger asking me out would get a polite refusal, every time. Because there's no time to consider the matter, and refusal is default because it's safer.

Different story with someone I know, especially if I already have a suspicion they might be interested and have had some time to consider it. Takes time to build the non-physical part of attraction, too.

As far as inside relationships, I don't think it's a male female thing, women claim headache etc too. It's probably more common with us because if we can't muster enthusiasm for it at that particular moment, certain equipment isn't going to work and then it's all "you don't find me attractive" and/or it gets turned into a medical issue of some sort, or it damages our sexual confidence (leading into a vicious cycle) essentially it's a bigger deal than just boredom, can actually become a huge (but false) crisis, which is comical in an absurd sort of way if you think about it. A woman can have sex if she isn't aroused, even get away with pretending she is, we can't, and it makes a world of difference psychologically.



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01 Aug 2012, 4:50 pm

edgewaters wrote:
DogsWithoutHorses wrote:
Oh I certainly believe that guys like the idea, in my experience they just don't go for the reality as much.
I'm "approaching" guys I take the guiding hand tac with just as much as guys I outright ask. Even a subtle advance is still going to be rejected or accepted. If a guy doesn't respond to what I'm doing, that's a rejection.
I'm still coming on to them either way, but when I let them say the words they're more comfortable.


I think it's mostly just a matter of time and preparedness. I've got to admit a complete stranger asking me out would get a polite refusal, every time. Because there's no time to consider the matter, and refusal is default because it's safer.

Different story with someone I know, especially if I already have a suspicion they might be interested and have had some time to consider it. Takes time to build the non-physical part of attraction, too.

As far as inside relationships, I don't think it's a male female thing, women claim headache etc too. It's probably more common with us because if we can't muster enthusiasm for it at that particular moment, certain equipment isn't going to work and then it's all "you don't find me attractive" and/or it gets turned into a medical issue of some sort, or it damages our sexual confidence (leading into a vicious cycle) essentially it's a bigger deal than just boredom, can actually become a huge (but false) crisis, which is comical in an absurd sort of way if you think about it. A woman can have sex if she isn't aroused, even get away with pretending she is, we can't, and it makes a world of difference psychologically.


Bingo. Its like the thread of the guy simply sayin "im clean wanna f**k?". Not many will go for that. Now if he slowly increases the flame the frog wont jump out of the boiling water. Same thing applies for women. All your doing is giving an excuse to be passive. If anything its things like that which promote the whole women being objects ideas.



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01 Aug 2012, 7:53 pm

EstherJ wrote:
Well, lately, here's what he's been doing:
- Checking up on me (calling a friend to ask, or asking me, all the time)
- Trying to "take care" of me, or showing concern for me especially when I'm not feeling well
- Always touching me - poking, play punching, pat on the back,nudging me with foot, leaning into me
- Teasing (in a nice way)
- Noticing my appearance and commenting on it - either good, "you look nice," or advice, but always followed with a compliment
- Sticking with me wherever I go...sitting by me, walking with me.

I still can't discern if this is just his personality, or if he's trying to give me signals. He knows I have Asperger's, so I sort of expect him to know that I might miss stuff...


He's clearly interested.
When he's poking you . . . leaning into you, make yourself available for him to kiss you. Don't necessarily kiss him; maybe just nudge him around his chin. Whatever feels natural. He may be looking for signs of encouragement.



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02 Aug 2012, 4:22 pm

Guys, I would be responding more, but I'm in another country right now on business. I want to keep this up - this discussion is really interesting and even helpful- but my reaction time might be slow.

I will say this:
- My AS makes it really hard for me to tell if I'm reading too much into this
- I would like to make a move, but again, because I have AS, it's really, really difficult. I'm also terrified because I've never done this, and he's a friend.
- He has slowed his overtures a little since we are both not in school until August. He only does this stuff when he sees me, but he asks my friends about me a lot.

As far as saying something blatant, I don't think I could do that. I can't communicate very well verbally - I mess crap up and don't ever get my point across. I have been doing things back that he does to me. I think a problem is is that I don't have good facial expression OR voice intonation, so I can feel things and people never know.

I want him to know I like him back, but I don't want it to be blatant, and I don't know how not to be obvious. Oh gosh. At this rate I will never date someone. :oops:



rosemund
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02 Aug 2012, 6:16 pm

MXH wrote:
mv wrote:
And MXH, in no way did I mean to say that I felt victimized, I was trying to present a more nuanced and balanced view of the world, by introducing an example that I (and many women I know) have found. I'm not sure you understand that.


I completely understand, but im not sure you do on what i said. im explaining how youre blaming some far fetched concept that men didnt want you because you were "independent" when in reality there are many more simpler reasons why they didnt go so well with your initiative. The thing with initiative is that rejection will feel harsher than if youre the one doing the rejection. Because you wont know why you were rejected, which can lead to silly thoughts like "its because i chased him, men must be scared of being chased". In reality most guys dream of women taking initiative. You simply got a taste of the other side and didnt like it. This isnt ignoring the risks of being totally passive either, im simply addressing the active side.


Umm, no. In my case, we'd been together for several years. At first, he didn't mind if initiated things (basic or sexual), if I was what I would consider insipid about it (some call it coy). As time went on, he started saying I was too independent. That he didn't understand why I never seemed to need him, but if I did ask his opinion on things, then he told me he just wanted me to handle things and not bother him. If I didn't make plans for us, he got mad. If I did make plans for us, he got angry I didn't consult him about it, and he stated it was due to his might wanting to do something else. This is someone who never went out, and when he finally did, he hooked up with someone else because "she needs me".

Both before him, and more recently, I've had male friends tell me that guys don't ask me out, because I don't appear to need anyone. They tell me NT men ask out women who appear to need them, and I give off a "I'm fine on my own" sort of vibe.

I don't know how either (the ex or my male friends) could have been more direct, so I'm not "blaming some far fetched concept" as you state above. I was flat out told the reason was my being too independent. The problem with this is, whatever radar I had to gauge whether NT men are interested or not, has been shot to h*ll in a hand basket. I really do try not to generalize based on gender, but it's a reoccuring theme in my life.