Page 1 of 1 [ 3 posts ] 

cubedemon6073
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Nov 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,953

07 Aug 2012, 5:11 pm

First, I want to apologize for becoming angry at you ooo and making ad hominem attacks at you. When I become angry I become very incoherent. I realized what was happening and I had to walk away. Second, I believe you are correct but only to a certain extent. I believe am correct in what I am saying and what I believe. This whole thing below is my rationale for what I believe. If my rationality is off and my logic is off then please show me. This goes for anyone here as well including parents both AS and NT. If I have fallacies, I will stand to be corrected. If I am wrong then why is your logic and rationality right ooo and others who believe as you do?

There are certain things that I see as wrong with this country and its cultural standards and moral values that a good chunk of the American population have today. The standards and values are not problems in of themselves but the extremeness to which they are applied and to whom they are applied. The main one is called responsibility. This value and standard has to go with other values especially the value called trust. We also have humility and submission of will. Another we standard we have in America is practicality.

Here are definitions as to what trust and personal responsibility are. Trust is a “firm belief in the reliability, truth, ability, or strength of someone or something:” It also means “acceptance of the truth of a statement without evidence or investigation. “ Responsibility is “the state or fact of having a duty to deal with something or of having control over someone”(oxford online) It also means “the state or fact of being accountable or to blame for something.”

Our American society is not just based upon facts, rules and procedures. American Society is based upon relationships. There many different types of relationships. A few examples are mother to child, father to child, husband to wife, grandparents to grandchildren and uncle and aunt to nieces and nephews. Relationships aren’t just based on family. In addition, we have teacher to student, employer to employee, supervisor to supervisee, and others as well. We have countless amounts of relationships that exist in America and the world today. These relationships are the actual glue that holds American society together. A lot of relationships that exist in America today are hierarchical.

In order for a relationship to be strong there has to be a certain level of trust especially in a hierarchical one. Trust has to accompany honesty and honesty means “the quality of being honest:” Being honest means “free of deceit and untruthfulness; sincere.” In a hierarchical relationship, one has to submit his will to governing authority. For example, a child has to submit his or her will to his or her parents. An employee eventually has to submit his or her will to the employer.

There is something that is returned from this and this could be called a mutually agreed upon implicit contract. In this contract, the person on the lower rung should expect and rightfully expect that those on the higher rung of this hierarchy will be honest in what they say or do. Not only should it be free from deceptions and lies but it has to be free as it can be from error. If there is an error what does the person on the lower rung do if there is an error or a deception made if the person has to submit his will to different authority figures in many hierarchical relationships?

Based upon the roles in a hierarchical relationship I can’t agree with what personal responsibility advocates say about personal responsibility especially when it comes to college. I believe they are wrong on this and other issues like this as well. It is those who are higher up who have more responsibility and more accountability than those on the lower rung. This is because they have power over those on the lower rungs are in submission to them. With submission trust has to follow towards those on the higher rung. If trust is broken either through deceit or through error it is those who are higher up in the relationship hierarchy that are personally responsible and accountable to those they are in charge of. There are those who say one should not expect this whatsoever and I believe this is morally wrong and immoral. The reasoning is this if a person has to verify what those on the higher rung has to say then this means he is automatically calling into question the person’s trustworthiness. In effect, they’re being called a liar and are guilty until proven innocent. In America, are we not innocent until proven guilty at least in a court of law?

Another reason trust has to exist is the impracticality of the lack of trust. If the standard is that one is responsible for verification of facts then one has to verify what he verifies. The reason for this is because this person has to verify that the source who states something is not lying and is not dishonest. This means this person who is on the lower rung of the relationship hierarchy would have to prove negatives. Proving a negative is impractical. Is it practical to prove that invisible and pink unicorns do not exist? What about the entire universe?

I believe that the values a lot of people have are correct but only to a certain extent. Responsibility is being taken to an extreme that it should not be taken to. Responsibility has its sisters and brothers and they are honesty, trust, accountability, submission of will, humility, and practicality. In order for society to be a functional society balance has to exist amongst different values that are not limited here. In effect, shouldn't we all be able to give our words as gentlemen and ladies and it would be as good as gold?



DannyRaede
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker
Yellow-bellied Woodpecker

User avatar

Joined: 17 Jun 2012
Age: 33
Gender: Male
Posts: 68
Location: Denver, CO

09 Aug 2012, 12:33 pm

Yes, in a perfect world our word would be enough. However, this is not a perfect world. People lie, cheat steal.



cubedemon6073
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 7 Nov 2008
Age: 45
Gender: Male
Posts: 4,953

09 Aug 2012, 7:20 pm

DannyRaede wrote:
Yes, in a perfect world our word would be enough. However, this is not a perfect world. People lie, cheat steal.


Yes, you're right which is why I believe that ooo and other responsibility advocates' beliefs do not hold up in reality. Our world was never perfect but it used to be one could give his word and one could expect to receive another person's word and it would be honored. No, things were not perfect.

The problem with ooo and his beliefs and those who share his beliefs is there are times one can't verify when you're in certain situations or positions. By his logic, one would have to verify all things that are told to you and what you research. I would have to verify the verifications. I would have to verify the verifications of the verifications. This would go on forever. It is impractical to do. Eventually, one will have to take what another person says and accept it without having to verifiy.

Yes, verifying is good but there comes a point in time when it is good enough. This means eventually we will have to take something on faith. This is where trust and honesty has to come in and be along side its sibling responsibility. IMHO, our American Society has lost the values of trust and honesty.

Let's say I steal a pair of shoes and I am caught. I am responsible for what I did. This is reasonable. I should be made to pay the owner of the shoe store back and I would deserve any sentencing I receive. This is the problem I have with responsibility today and those who hold this standard to the extreme that they do. It requires one to do which is impossible. With responsibility, trust and honesty has to follow. This is what I believe happened with the college students at Occupy Wall Street.

They were owed the ability to trust the higher ups and honesty by those who were higher up on the hierarchial ladder due to the nature of a hierarchial relationship because it is expected that those on the lower rung are supposed to humble and submit their will to those on the higher end. This is why I believe ooo, Fnord and those with the responsibility beliefs are incorrect on this. A lot of NTs hold these beliefs as well. I believe that this responsibility without expectation of trust and honesty is a scourge on our nation and is one of the root problems.

It may be that the higher ups were mistaken but it is still their responsibility to make sure those on the lower rung in a relationship have the truth and to acknowledge their mistake and help correct the results of their mistake.