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Is life sacred?
No life is sacred. 29%  29%  [ 10 ]
All life is sacred (vegetables, animals, human fetuses, all people). 26%  26%  [ 9 ]
Previous option minus fetuses 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Non-vegetables are sacred (animals, human fetuses, all people). 9%  9%  [ 3 ]
Previous option minus fetuses 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Only mammals, humans and human fetuses are sacred 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Previous option minus fetuses 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Only human lives and human fetuses are sacred 9%  9%  [ 3 ]
Previous option minus fetuses 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Only Human fetuses and non-poor people are sacred. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Only non-poor people that have been born are sacred. 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Only Human fetuses and rich people are sacred. 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Only rich people are sacred, the rest including human fetuses are spendable. 6%  6%  [ 2 ]
Only human fetuses are sacred. 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
Total votes : 35

The_Walrus
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14 Aug 2012, 7:08 pm

enrico_dandolo wrote:
I think all units of happiness/non-suffering/utility are sacred. I prefer utility because I find it very vague and total. If killing a plant increases the total level, fine. If killing an animal increases it, okay. If killing a fetus increases it, absolutely no problem. If killing a grown human beings increases it, very well. Obviously, at least the last three, and maybe the first as well, necessarily cause some negative utility by hypothesis, but if it is compensated by a greater amount of positive utility, there you go.

There is obviously a problem in defining and, especially, in quantifying this, however.

Are you a strict quantitative utilitarian like Bentham, or do you think that some goods are worth more than others like J.S. Mill?

What is your take on the sadistic guards analogy, where a large group of prison guards take great pleasure in beating, raping and brutally murdering a single prisoner? Or throwing a small group of Christians to the lions in Rome for the amusement of a crowd of tens of thousands?



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14 Aug 2012, 8:26 pm

Oldout wrote:
You forgot to include aspies as sacred, therefore, I was unable to answer your poll.
Las time I checked, aspies were people.


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14 Aug 2012, 8:41 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
enrico_dandolo wrote:
I think all units of happiness/non-suffering/utility are sacred. I prefer utility because I find it very vague and total. If killing a plant increases the total level, fine. If killing an animal increases it, okay. If killing a fetus increases it, absolutely no problem. If killing a grown human beings increases it, very well. Obviously, at least the last three, and maybe the first as well, necessarily cause some negative utility by hypothesis, but if it is compensated by a greater amount of positive utility, there you go.

There is obviously a problem in defining and, especially, in quantifying this, however.

Are you a strict quantitative utilitarian like Bentham, or do you think that some goods are worth more than others like J.S. Mill?

I haven't read either completely (because I'm lazy), I only heard of them in class. On that, I would be closer to Bentham in theory, but I think utility is completely unquantifiable. However, I certainly do not believe that some goods are better than others. In the end, from what I know of them, I would say that they are both wrong on several points of detail, but right in the general argument against deontology. To be completely precise, my position is my own, I developped it with my own arguments and thoughts. I only fed it from Bentham, Mill and others (or rather from what I heard of them).

The_Walrus wrote:
What is your take on the sadistic guards analogy, where a large group of prison guards take great pleasure in beating, raping and brutally murdering a single prisoner? Or throwing a small group of Christians to the lions in Rome for the amusement of a crowd of tens of thousands?

I will analize both as the same dilemma here, with a similar grid.

Victim: The fate of the victim is that of an absolute negative utility if the victim dies. That would not just be suffering, but elimination of all potential positive utility afterwardsé If the victim is just brutalized and left alive, the question is more difficult, but I think it still creates more negative utility quantitatively -- even if it can't be quantified -- than any positive utility gained by the guards/Romans.

Directly involved people: Both the Roman spectators and the guards get a small amount of relative utility. In the case of the Christians, the lions get a free meal, which would be positive utility if they weren't otherwise mistreated beforehand. In any case, nothing of this is enough to compensate for the absolute negative utility on the part of the victim. (My concept of absolute negative utility had to be tightened, though. I use it in many different ways. I am not very satisfied by it in many ways.)

Indirectly involved people: The death of anyone also creates negative utility on the part of the people who liked the deceased. The people who didn't like them gain very little positive utility, because when one doesn't like someone else, one tends to just avoid them, and so gain little from their death, from an utilitarian point of view (or nothing at all, generally). This is all relative, but doesn't help the case of prison brutality/persecution.

On a societal scale: I don't think a single such incident would have much consequence. Few people are important enough that their death (or the spetacle thereof) would have any consequence on society at large. Many such events would probably have some minor consequences in the perception of violence. I don't know if it is significant, however, but it . The case of the Christian may have positive consequences there if it increases religious, and thus societal cohesion, but this failed to happen in practice, and it may have also had the reverse effect of increasing divisions on the basis of religion. On the whole, there might be a minor, relative utility on "everyone", but it would probably count way less than the actual deaths in the total bill. (I keep this part of the grid of analysis on murder because, for example, the political execution of a tyrant or other homocides which have a strong symbolic value. Symbols have consequences which are significant to utilitarian analysis.)

I am somewhat tired at the moment, so I may not have put this very well, but if you answer, it may spark an interesting discussion!



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18 Aug 2012, 9:09 am

An organism is a bag of temporarily sustained biochemical reactions that is loosely separated from the surrounding. Upon death of the organism, a different set of chemical reactions take over, and the separation from the surrounding environment ceases (the organism is ultimately turned in to carbon dioxide and water, except for non-organic components such as bone).

Why would one set of chemical reactions be more "sacred" than another set of chemical reactions?

The mind, which I here loosely define as 1) an emerging property sprung from a certain set of information (in our case stored in the neural network that we call "our brain") that 2) happens to exhibit an awareness of its own existence, is a slightly different case (for example, it doesn't necessarily require a biological host - we could conceive of other media in which the information is stored, such as in the speculative case of artificial intelligences), not because it's "sacred", but because we tend to feel a stronger bond to other minds than we do to biochemical bags in general (for example, we are happy to eat the biochemical bag we call salad, whereas most people would feel bad about killing and eating a human - these two biochemical bags are not very different, but one of them happens to host a mind).

But that is a different topic altogether.



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30 Sep 2018, 10:48 pm

In the grand scheme of the universe, nothing on Earth is sacred. The universe existed 10 billion years before Earth existed and will go on for billions or trillions of years after the slowly expanding sun cooks and swallows the Earth, leaving no evidence that we ever existed(unless of course we colonize space).


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03 Oct 2018, 11:18 pm

All life is sacred. The lives of everything is sacred, because God created LiFE.


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03 Oct 2018, 11:35 pm

Where is the option for no life is sacred? Because we're all just random occurrences in the universe and thus none of us are more important than anything else. Sacred is just a human concept, in the larger scheme of the universe I suspect it means nothing.


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04 Oct 2018, 12:12 am

Long-dead threads clearly aren't sacred.

I have to consider most of what we define as 'sacred' to deal with how human beings treat each other. In that sense do we want people to treat life as if its sacred and by all intents and purposes keep that in their minds? It's clearly better than a Hobbesian nightmare and that seems to come rather effortlessly for many people.


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04 Oct 2018, 9:25 am

I didn't vote on any, but I DO believe all life is sacred. It's just that sometimes killing is a necessary evil.

Killing another human being should always be viewed as shameful but sometimes you have to do it if you are protecting yourself or your family or fighting in a war to protect your own country. But if you have to kill somebody you should always try to make it as quick as possible because if you purposely prolong the suffering of another human being that makes you a sadistic monster.

There are so many sadists and psychopaths in this world who make life miserable for everybody and I hate that.


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04 Oct 2018, 10:35 am

I would have voted if the poll had been in aid of a serious purpose, or if the options given had been mature and adult ones; sadly, neither of these conditions were met.



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04 Oct 2018, 10:39 am

Only the lives of Wolfmen are sacred :P



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04 Oct 2018, 10:50 am

Words Live and Words Die, DepEnding on the Essence Now
of Human Feelings and Senses That And Who ARe A ReaL
Gold of Paper Words.

In other Words, the Human Experience of the Sacred is a Synergy of Human Force Energy that moves us that
consists of Emotions and Senses; and to go to an even Narrower Material Reductionist View, the Neuro-Chemical
and Neuro-Hormonal Reactions that occur Within our Minds/Bodies that are Positive and Lead to Overall Greater Health
and Well Being; or Negative Health and Well Being in the 'Sense' of the Science Phrase, the 'Nocebo' Affect and Effect, Where Stress Hormones Like Cortisol and Adrenaline Related Neurohormones Flood the Blood Stream in Negative Stress Impact And When Chronic, Destroy the Bodily Systems Creating Disease and Disorder; as well as Shortening the overall
Potential Life Span when not rectified in a Mind and Body Balance of Feedback in Mastery of Relative Free Will Overall in
Regulating Emotions
And Integrating Senses.

Feeling and Sensing More of Life's Experience as Sacred and Holy, Regardless of Organized Religious Affiliation Equals
Greater Health and Well Being; but, And a huge but; if all Sacred is, is an empty Abstract Construct Concept that does
Not have a Real Foundation of Positive Neuro-Chemical and Neuro-Hormonal Reactions as produced By the
Release of Dopamine and Serotonin and Oxytocin, to name just three Positive Neuro-Chemicals and
Neuro-Hormones, where the word Sacred May be Just an Empty Shell that may be used for Political/
Religious/Philosophical Purposes in Laws that establish what one Must respect as Sacred and what one
Must Not Respect as Profane. Overall, Lust, is a Great Example of this as that relates to the control of
Reproductive Freedoms and the Control; Particularly, of a Women's Choice as that relates to who she
wants to mate with and specifically Have Children with, including Males who would Rape Women too.

Interestingly, in Affect/Effect when 'the Sacred' is used as an Abstract Construct and Concept to take Human Freedoms
Away in both Affect and Effect, the Sacred becomes the Profane at Essence for it is a Negative Human Experience
per the Nocebo Affect and Effect; and Corresponding Positive Neuro-Chemicals and Neuro-Hormones for
Those Human Freedoms to be taken away. Now/then if it is an otherwise 'Incel' who purchases a Wife
through A Dowry and Such as that; that Dowry may verily seem Sacred to the otherwise 'Incel Dude'
who might not ever find a Mate, if a Mate was not purchased for them through Socio-Economic
Advantage. So, in this Sense and Feel, the Sacred is surely a Moral Relativistic Concept, depending on who
is gaining Human Freedoms and who is Losing Human Freedoms. So, in other Words, it's not too surprising
that folks who are outcast for whatever reason, when they go to Church; or have their Freedoms Restricted
in anyway, start to see Organized Religion as Whole as Profane instead of Sacred as that applies to the Rest of Life too.

A Problem is when one loses the Common Sense and Feel of the Essence of the Sacred for all Stuff Life
in Sacred and Holy Ways, Full of Meaning and Purpose that we Humans Co-Create with or without Large
Religious Organized Institutions, including Politics and Sports; and Drinking at the Local Bar, if that ain't 'your' 'thing'.

For Example, I see the Life Experience of Smell as Very Sacred for every Smell and Taste of Life. The fact that
I lost my Smell for around a Year to a Common Cold Virus, enhances the Sacred I actually Sense and Feel from
the Smells and Tastes of Life, I no longer take for Granted and i have Great Veneration and Gratitude now for; and
what that means in a more Material Reductionist View is my Associated Good Feeling and Sensing Neuro-Hormones
and Neuro-Chemicals are Pumped up now in even a more Positive Sacred View of Life Experiences in this way than
I would Experience Life, if not for what I understand now as the Sacred Darkness of that Common Cold and Losing
my 'Normal' Sense of Smell for a Year that now that Taste and Smell has Returned, now the Mundane of the 'little'
Tastes/Smells of life, Even Like Common Bread is a much Greater Sacred Experience of Life than before 'The DArk'.

The Same applies too, when I lost my Effective Sense and Feel of Eyesight and Hearing for 66 Months with the
Torture from wake to Sleep with Type Two Trigeminal Neuralgia where I could appreciate no Beauty in Life in
Colors or Sounds. Ha! in the last 5 years since I've recovered, I've taken 169K Photos with my Smart Phone
and listened to 10's of Thousands of YouTube Music Videos; and even documented it in a 6 Million Word
Poem for 5 Years now too. People might wonder why I enjoy the Intrinsic Reward doing it with expectation
of no other Reward but Perhaps they haven't Lost their Physical Senses and Feels of Life as sure I Lost Emotions
through that Pain then too; and now I appreciate every Nuance of Emotion as that relates to Pain and Pleasure too.

I was uncomfortable in my own skin for Decades, now every Step and Move is Sacred now that I Dance every
Move and Step of Life where I go in Public for 10,000 Miles Measured by GPS Sports watch in 5 years now.

Oh yeah, I had practically no Imagination and Creativity in College; even though I managed to Graduate with
3 Degrees at close to Top of the Class; same as I did in High School too. I checked out a Book on Creativity
in College, at Least twenty times, but i never gained the Focus to get Past the First Chapter.

The Darkness of all 19 Medical Disorders in a Life Threatening Synergy of Living Hell eventually lit
up my Creativity again, Lost since I was a Much Younger Child, as the Moving Meditation of Dance and
Writing Free Verse Poetry takes me to the Theta Mind Wave State of Being, Enhancing Creativity in Synergy
even more now. True too, with Tactile Sensitivity from Birth it helps to Integrate my Senses to make me even
More comfortable in my own skin than ever before in life, too. Funny, how Life can come together as the Mundane
and otherwise Profane all becomes Sacred; even the Darkest Days and Months and Years of Life too as Synergy oF all.

So yeah, I see all 5 Human 'Normal' Senses as Sacred Experiences of Life. But of course that's not all for there
is Proprioception where the Body 'Sees' where it goes in the Three Dimensional Environment as a Blind Person
would 'normally' otherwise Navigate Life. A Free Style Dance of 10,000 Miles in 5 Years makes my Entire Body
per Every Square inch of it an eye to see the World. And True, I am Fearless now after Spending Decades in Anxiety
and to be Clear, Anxiety is Just Physiological State of Mind and Body; the Dance Makes all of Life a Blanket of Comfort.

My God is Pac Man in the Sense and Feel that my God is All and Consumes in Venn Diagram Way all Smaller Gods Locked in Words and or only Men or and Women. All Is All Now; It Depends On How We 'See' All If We Are Happy or Not Now.

I See/Feel/Sense All of Dark and Light Working Together to make what is; I understand the Greatest Lights of Life
Come From Dark; therefore, I Trust all that is as God as an All Natural Faith I Feel and Sense in Neuro-Chemical
and Neuro-Hormonal Ways.
In other Words,
My Sacred
And Holy
And
My God is Real
And I Just Proved my
God Exists that/who no one
can or will actually refute or take away now.


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04 Oct 2018, 12:33 pm

Here is my thought process;
All life is valuable.

All life also has the right to try to keep itself alive including humans, but should try to do so in a respectful way.
All humans of all ages and developmental stages should be given rights and treated with respect.
Animals should be treated with a similar level of respect, and should only be eaten if you have to. It also kills more plants to eat animals than it does to eat plants.
All living things have the right to try to survive at the experience of others if need be, and to defend themselves. For a human to survive it must eat plants, but they shouldn't do around stomping on every grass they see and chopping down every tree without any guilt, you should still have basic respect.

My view in part comes biblically which makes it clear;
All human life is important. No exceptions.
Plants were given to humans and animals as food.
Animals were only given as food after the fall to keep people alive and to share the gospel (As food is the staple of a culture), and will no longer be food in heaven.


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04 Oct 2018, 3:07 pm

Every living thing has the right to live. Unfortunately life is a cruel sport that has set all of us living beings against each other. :skull:

Maybe one day there will be no more life and our planet will be as dry and lifeless as every other planet in our solar system...


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