Do abstract things and spiritual things exist in addition to

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Jitro
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19 Aug 2012, 9:20 pm

Do abstract things and spiritual things exist in addition to physical things or is everything physical?



ruveyn
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19 Aug 2012, 9:30 pm

Jitro wrote:
Do abstract things and spiritual things exist in addition to physical things or is everything physical?


The cosmos is physical, but not all thing are tangible by humans.

Spacetime is filled with all sorts of fields for example.

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enrico_dandolo
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20 Aug 2012, 3:25 am

I imagine that your question is more about "spiritual things" than "abstract things", because I don't really see what you mean by the latter.

Humans can only access the physical reality. Any speculation about the existence or non-existence of something beyond the material world is vain.



JakobVirgil
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20 Aug 2012, 7:23 am

I think by definition no if something is real it is called physical.
If anything "supernatural" exist then the super must be wrong.


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Jitro
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20 Aug 2012, 10:59 pm

enrico_dandolo wrote:
I imagine that your question is more about "spiritual things" than "abstract things", because I don't really see what you mean by the latter.


By abstract things, I mean things like numbers. Mathematics.



AngelRho
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21 Aug 2012, 6:45 am

enrico_dandolo wrote:
I imagine that your question is more about "spiritual things" than "abstract things", because I don't really see what you mean by the latter.

Humans can only access the physical reality. Any speculation about the existence or non-existence of something beyond the material world is vain.

Numbers are immaterial. Does that mean they cease to exist? Ideas are also immaterial. Does that stop us from thinking creatively?



ruveyn
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21 Aug 2012, 9:19 am

enrico_dandolo wrote:
I imagine that your question is more about "spiritual things" than "abstract things", because I don't really see what you mean by the latter.

Humans can only access the physical reality. Any speculation about the existence or non-existence of something beyond the material world is vain.



There are no "spiritual things". This delusion is the result of very physical neurological activity.

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olympiadis
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18 May 2015, 12:13 pm

enrico_dandolo wrote:
I imagine that your question is more about "spiritual things" than "abstract things", because I don't really see what you mean by the latter.

Humans can only access the physical reality. Any speculation about the existence or non-existence of something beyond the material world is vain.



I could be wrong, but it seems very clear to me that humans can access things that are not physical.
I could go into describing many aspects of this, and it would require a lot of writing. Instead I'm just going to reference what Carl Jung described decades ago as what he called "archetypes", and "synchronicity".

I know I'm bringing up an old thread, and a far older subject.
I think this subject is very important, and especially so in relation to the differences in how NTs and ASD individuals perceive and process their realities.



Grebels
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18 May 2015, 1:15 pm

The phi number and a consequent number set exist, but are they abstract. I do not think they were created by mathematicians.



Cato Publius
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18 May 2015, 1:37 pm

I am working on a paper that addresses this issue. I propose that there are two different "worlds" which coincide to allow us to experience the physical world. This is because I define phenomenon as 1. having an observable--physical--end and 2. having a means which is hidden--usually mathematical/physics laws.

The laws here are not physical, however what we physically observe is the visualization of them. As an example we can use time, gravity, or thought.


For time, the "physical observation" of such is the framing device that us humans have created: we use "time" as a way to understand what has happened in the past, and in this construct "time" is simply a chronology of events.

However, I did not think that this was what could be all that time is, as there needs to be something that allows for a practical chronology. This is where the immaterial guidance of laws come in: the "laws of time". The laws of time allow for "practical causality" as if time was purely physical, there would be nothing guaranteeing what physicists call the "arrow of time". The arrow of time is the confusing phenomenon that things seem to go only in one direction--an egg breaks, but never unbreaks. If time was purely physical, then we could create something that allowed for eggs to be unbroken, as we have the means as physical creatures to completely mold the physical world. However, if this was the case, then everything in the universe could be "undone", and if this were the case, then the universe would be completely irrational, as nothing that we considered truth would truly be truth, as it could be undone, causing it to be untrue.

In terms of gravity, there has to be immaterial laws which guide gravitational force--at least in my opinion. As if we think back to the time where the universe expanded exponentially, if the laws were created from physical interactions out of necessity, then I think that an asymmetrical universe would naturally occur: which I think would ultimately fail. If, during the expansion, one offshoot of energy became hotter than another, different laws would be created in that area, which then future physical interactions would then have to act in accordance to, this would be different from another offshoot--this would create a universe where the "laws" were asymmetrical, however our universe has the same laws throughout. With gravity in mind, going all the way back to the expansion of the universe, it is most practical to have this "immaterial" mindset, as if it is assumed that physical interactions give rise to laws out of necessity, then the asymmetrical, impractical universe would almost be guaranteed.

In terms of thought, it seems that the physical grouping of information in the brain cannot account for profound thoughts that find connections beyond this physical grouping. To me, it seems logical that some thoughts are "immaterial" and cannot thoroughly be explained by the physical grouping or synapses themselves. Take for example Newton, once he realized something was at work--gravity-- he sought out to prove this through mathematics. The discovery, or creation, of calculus in order to prove gravity seemed otherworldly, and certainly can not be explained by the physical mind, as the relation between what gravity is physically, and the laws of mathematics which guide it are not physically connected at all.

These are my thoughts on the matter, at least.



olympiadis
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18 May 2015, 5:34 pm

Cato Publius wrote:
I am working on a paper that addresses this issue. I propose that there are two different "worlds" which coincide to allow us to experience the physical world. This is because I define phenomenon as 1. having an observable--physical--end and 2. having a means which is hidden--usually mathematical/physics laws.
The laws here are not physical, however what we physically observe is the visualization of them. As an example we can use time, gravity, or thought.


I have had similar thought. I describe it as the world of what is, and the world of what isn't.
It basically comes down to matter and energy. My definition of matter is pretty standard. My definition of energy includes everything else besides matter, - to include all abstractions.

The world of what isn't has effects on the world of what is, and leaves us footprints to observe in the form of patterns in material. It's the invisible man walking in the snow scenario.

Have you seen the long (3 hours I think) video on youtube about three dimensional time?
I think you would find it interesting.



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18 May 2015, 6:07 pm

Jitro wrote:
Do abstract things and spiritual things exist in addition to physical things or is everything physical?
If a thing or its effects cannot be consistently measured in a quantitative way, then it is safe to say that the thing does not exist. If the alleged existence of a thing consistently has the same effects as its non-existence, then it is safe to say that the thing does not exist.

'Spiritual' things are mere concepts. While they may exist in the mind, when one ceases to dwell upon them, they cease to exist as well. Thus, they are ephemeral, as well as imaginary.

Believe in unprovable and immaterial things if you will, but demanding that I share your beliefs will be a waste of both your time and your effort.



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18 May 2015, 10:54 pm

Jitro wrote:
Do abstract things and spiritual things exist in addition to physical things or is everything physical?


False dichotomy. Essentially positing that the only possible metaphysical positions are materialism and dualism, while excluding the alternative of idealism.


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19 May 2015, 4:59 am

Jitro wrote:
Do abstract things and spiritual things exist in addition to physical things or is everything physical?


First of all, I don't think there is anything real aside from the physical. Abstract things and spiritual things exist as mental sculptures. They have physicality in that everything that exists in the mind is a physical manifestation brought about by certain physical brain processes.

Another way in which the abstract and the spiritual might be said to have physical existence is via the physical reality of the things that they are metaphorically used to translate.

A lot of atheists dismiss spirituality as an anachronistic and essentially meaningless concept used to con people and shut down their critical thinking faculties. But, it carries certain associations in western culture that are pretty good, at least from an ethical standpoint. I'm convinced that when most christians talk about spirituality, they're talking about being virtuous, and not so much things like talking to ghosts and magical thinking.



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19 May 2015, 6:22 am

JakobVirgil wrote:
I think by definition no if something is real it is called physical.
If anything "supernatural" exist then the super must be wrong.

This, just that people have to decide what they mean by 'spiritual'. Supernatural is a term with enough oxymoron embedded to suggest 'impossible'. On the other hand if by spiritual a person is reaching deeper into consciousness, possibly exploring higher amalgamations of it than the individual self (ie. Jung, transpersonal psychology, etc. etc.) it's much tougher to gauge because there are so many of what we may loosely call 'places' for a lack of a better term that aren't places at all in the outward/objective sense but are closer to highly organized and possibly autonomous states.

Words like soul and spirit seem like they're victims of all kinds of definition-blurring, and in particular mainstream religion hasn't helped that much. Even in the esoteric world different orders seem to have different ways they'll use it, all of them make sense in their own reference but it just seems like a way of saying 'within the objective/subjective experience there's A and there's B' and A or B takes on one or the other term.


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19 May 2015, 9:44 am

Quote:

"If a thing or its effects cannot be consistently measured in a quantitative way, then it is safe to say that the thing does not exist. If the alleged existence of a thing consistently has the same effects as its non-existence, then it is safe to say that the thing does not exist.

'Spiritual' things are mere concepts. While they may exist in the mind, when one ceases to dwell upon them, they cease to exist as well. Thus, they are ephemeral, as well as imaginary.

Believe in unprovable and immaterial things if you will, but demanding that I share your beliefs will be a waste of both your time and your effort."


Human emotions and senses 101.

Science can 'talk' about 'em; but the scientific method has no reliable method to
measure the internal and connecting human emotional and sensory force
of being in consistent quantitative way.

So in other words, by your logic;
Human Being does not exist.

This is the problem with
Science; believing that
science exists by
itself, and is
more than
a frigging
tool.

Humans exist. And 'spirit' is just a metaphor
created in biblical times to express the
reality of the internal and connecting
force of human emotional and
sensory regulated and
integrated forces
of being.

And Oh my God; if science still
cannot get a handle on it,
more than throwing
some psychotropic
drugs at it
with little
more efficacy
than the placebo effect;
the biblical folks did not
do such a bad job of 'metaphoring'
the emotional life of human being
into stuff like the SOUL for self awareness
in mind and body balance; the HEART for
the emotional experience of human being;
and the SPIRIT for the emotional and sensory
connecting force of human being in expressing
this all encompassing human spirit, if it lives much at
all, in human beings with other human being, as socially cooperative
little bitty mammals; not unlike cats and dogs; or raccoons; or bears..etc....

The height of all human ignorance is the illusion that human being does not exist.

And that my friend, is either precisely what 'you' are suggesting, or where 'you' are at.

But I am not going to make that personal judgement, alone, with just words online.


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