Do other Aspie girls ask guys out?

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saraip
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31 Oct 2012, 12:24 am

Sounds like Aspie girls are much more willing to "get things done" than NT girls - really encouraging news. I always get treated like a freak for even suggesting that I would ask a guy out, but I honestly don't understand body language or how to flirt, so it just seems much easier to just be direct and say what you're thinking. Thanks so much for sharing!



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31 Oct 2012, 2:16 am

I read an article which might translate here since the topics were very similar. It could be that NT women believe they done everything they need to to make a guy ask them out and that that is in fact asking the guy to ask. It's stupid, I know (stupid of them, not that the theory is stupid), but it is apparently not uncommon.

Few (random) women have struck up a conversation with me in the past. For all I know, that was the 'first move', the signal for me to do something more than just continue with the conversation then leave. I'm not saying they all wanted me to ask them out, but NT females seem to use the very subtle 'ask you to ask me' technique, which I am rubbish at detecting (I am more likely to get a false positive from someone I find attractive, than a real positive to someone I hadn't considered, but that's attraction bias).



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02 Nov 2012, 2:43 pm

saraip wrote:
Sounds like Aspie girls are much more willing to "get things done" than NT girls - really encouraging news. I always get treated like a freak for even suggesting that I would ask a guy out, but I honestly don't understand body language or how to flirt, so it just seems much easier to just be direct and say what you're thinking. Thanks so much for sharing!


It makes so much sense to get things done - especially if we know we are rubbish at subtle signals in the first place. Think about it - we do nothing or try to flirt and get it wrong = no boyfriend. But be direct and we've got a 50% chance of a "hey, I like you as well, where are you going to take me?" :lol:

It makes sense in theory, it's just the finding the courage to do it in practice that is hard!

And Mister Spock, from what I hear NT men can't pick up subtle hints either, but NT women seem to communicate their wishes to their boyfriends in hint form, then get upset when he hasn't figured out what they want. It seems in NT relationship world that game-playing is the norm and actually asking for what you want is the great taboo.

Look how many relationships books etc tell women to cut the conversations short, not return his calls for days, be busy when he asks for a date... if someone acted towards me that they weren't interested, I'd read that as them not being interested.



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02 Nov 2012, 3:56 pm

ColdEyesWarmHeart wrote:
Look how many relationships books etc tell women to cut the conversations short, not return his calls for days, be busy when he asks for a date... if someone acted towards me that they weren't interested, I'd read that as them not being interested.


There are seriously books that tell women to be uber-subtle? Probably not written by a heterosexual male. Why, if you want to be 'got', play hard to get? They say it's just 'the game', but why make your love-life a game? I suppose a book suggesting women be forthright and direct would be seen as controversial. But then maybe more Aspies would be approached by NTs, and the stresses of the 'dating scene' would be reduced (or shared across more people) and the whole thing would become more enjoyable for more people.

As a side, one reason I don't approach women is that I don't know what to say - I don't know her, so what would engage her interest? Do they have courses not run by nutjobs that help you gain the skills necessary to approach the opposite sex? A pottery, gardening, and social intercourse evening class?



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02 Nov 2012, 3:58 pm

ColdEyesWarmHeart wrote:
It makes so much sense to get things done - especially if we know we are rubbish at subtle signals in the first place. Think about it - we do nothing or try to flirt and get it wrong = no boyfriend. But be direct and we've got a 50% chance of a "hey, I like you as well, where are you going to take me?"

It makes sense in theory, it's just the finding the courage to do it in practice that is hard!

And Mister Spock, from what I hear NT men can't pick up subtle hints either, but NT women seem to communicate their wishes to their boyfriends in hint form, then get upset when he hasn't figured out what they want. It seems in NT relationship world that game-playing is the norm and actually asking for what you want is the great taboo.

Look how many relationships books etc tell women to cut the conversations short, not return his calls for days, be busy when he asks for a date... if someone acted towards me that they weren't interested, I'd read that as them not being interested.


I think, and I'm guessing here because I usually just blurt it out at a random moment or write a letter or an email... er... what was I saying? Oh right, I think it would be easier to approach the topic if you have already spoken about general relationships with the person - so for example, if you get to know someone, ask them if they have been in relationships, what they think about them, if they are interested in them and gradually work up to "Would you ever be interested in dating me?" Or something along those lines. Even if the person says no, in future, I will actually ask "Why not?" and have the full conversation with them. Of course, I expect that they will say "Yes I would" and then I could go on to ask why as well... of course it doesn't actually play out like this in real life, but I'm just giving my view of the "approaching guys" framework. I think it will come as less of a shock than "OMG I really like you - I think we should date" which usually comes out of the blue.

As for playing games - I know what you mean, right? It is ridiculous! I don't have that much time to waste figuring out other people's intentions - I think you should just be direct and avoid any confusion. In fact, the most covertly someone acts, the less I am interested in them as a person. But that's just me and glad I found someone who agrees. Game-playing is a no-no - that's why I have an Xbox.



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02 Nov 2012, 4:37 pm

ColdEyesWarmHeart wrote:
It makes so much sense to get things done - especially if we know we are rubbish at subtle signals in the first place. Think about it - we do nothing or try to flirt and get it wrong = no boyfriend. But be direct and we've got a 50% chance of a "hey, I like you as well, where are you going to take me?" :lol:
....
Look how many relationships books etc tell women to cut the conversations short, not return his calls for days, be busy when he asks for a date... if someone acted towards me that they weren't interested, I'd read that as them not being interested.


I agree with you ColdEyesWarmHeart - it gets the tension out of the way and you can see what's going on. It's either a yes or a no when you ask. You just have to be OK with the thought that they could get scared off.

I've read those books, and they've brought me nothing but very short relationships. Silence, I've learnt the hard way - is a killer.



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03 Nov 2012, 9:12 pm

MisterSpock wrote:
I read an article which might translate here since the topics were very similar. It could be that NT women believe they done everything they need to to make a guy ask them out and that that is in fact asking the guy to ask. It's stupid, I know (stupid of them, not that the theory is stupid), but it is apparently not uncommon.

Few (random) women have struck up a conversation with me in the past. For all I know, that was the 'first move', the signal for me to do something more than just continue with the conversation then leave. I'm not saying they all wanted me to ask them out, but NT females seem to use the very subtle 'ask you to ask me' technique, which I am rubbish at detecting (I am more likely to get a false positive from someone I find attractive, than a real positive to someone I hadn't considered, but that's attraction bias).
A woman you don't know striking up a conversation with you is definitely a sign of interest[depending on the setting of course].



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04 Nov 2012, 4:40 am

bruinsy33 wrote:
A woman you don't know striking up a conversation with you is definitely a sign of interest[depending on the setting of course].


Damn it. I should have asked the last one if she was Aspie. But seriously, the question I should have asked is "Do you want to get a drink sometime?" or similar.



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05 Nov 2012, 2:21 am

The issue with 'asking someone out' isn't about 'just doing it'.

Us AS people tend to see things rather black and white and this also applies to socializing.

MisterSpock: That girl striking up a conversation with you was indeed a sign of interest.
It does NOT however mean she would have said 'yes' if you straight-off asked her if she wanted to grab a cup of coffee with you!

Compare courtship to a game of tug-of-war. Your goal is to pull her towards you (becoming more intimate) without scaring her off (making her let go of the rope).
This is achieved by slowly pulling her in closer after you've made a move that went over well and giving her some slack to back off when a move of yours fails.

Relationship Space:
Whenever you are engaged in communication with someone there is a relationship space that is active between you which decides for the most part how the communication will progress.
This 'relationship space' can be summed up by 4 values. X1, X2, Y1, Y2.
1 stands for you, 2 stands for her.
X represents the role played by one person in the imagination of another. A larger role is represented by a higher
value for X. If she can’t stop thinking about you, then that’s
a very high value of X2.
Y represents the immediate presence of one person to
another’s attention. Y can increase as you stand closer to
someone. It can also be increased by what you say and the
way that you say it. For example, if you say something
important which demands a response then this increases Y2.
The same applies to X1 and Y1 but from her point of view.

So the courtship ritual (defined in the model of relationship spaces) involves nothing more than trying to increase both X2 and Y2.
The cravat however is that you do not want to increase Y2 too fast as to overwhelm your X2 value. If you get too close to her liking or ask a way too personal question (forcing Y2 way up) she WILL back off to lower her Y2 and this will probably have a negative effect on your X2! The skill is thus in firstly trying to ramp up your X2 value (get her to like you/think about you/concentrate on you) BEFORE you try ramping up your Y2 (getting closer to her, asking her more personal questions, imposing on her or telling her that story about your latest accomplishment at work)

This is a short example taken from a book about dating and the courtship ritual that I found VERY useful.
It is slightly altered and edited but the gist of it should be clear. This book provides an analytical view of the dating process and the conventions that are involved in such a way us ASPIES can relate and understand.

The book is 'Asperger meets girl' by Jonathan Griffiths and a must-read if I do say so myself.
Note the title makes it sound like it is designed for AS men but I can assure you AS females can learn a lot from it as well!


I don't know whether aspie girls ask guys out but I do know I've had about 10 girls tell me they're into me during my life as opposed to only telling +-5 that I am into them.
Out of the relationships I've had it's a solid 7/7 for them telling me they're into me.
So from personal experience I'd say it isn't that uncommon for girls to tell guys they like them.. although I might not be the best example :lol:


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saraip
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05 Nov 2012, 2:34 am

AyporosFM wrote:
Relationship Space:
Whenever you are engaged in communication with someone there is a relationship space that is active between you which decides for the most part how the communication will progress.
This 'relationship space' can be summed up by 4 values. X1, X2, Y1, Y2.
1 stands for you, 2 stands for her.
X represents the role played by one person in the imagination of another. A larger role is represented by a higher
value for X. If she can’t stop thinking about you, then that’s
a very high value of X2.
Y represents the immediate presence of one person to
another’s attention. Y can increase as you stand closer to
someone. It can also be increased by what you say and the
way that you say it. For example, if you say something
important which demands a response then this increases Y2.
The same applies to X1 and Y1 but from her point of view.

So the courtship ritual (defined in the model of relationship spaces) involves nothing more than trying to increase both X2 and Y2.


I would definitely enjoy reading this book, but I am a bit skeptical - for instance, if X represents the role played by one person in the imagination of the other, in the case of women, this usually goes from zero to a lot - there isn't usually much of an in-between. Girls - let me know what you think of this, but there is certainly usually no gradual progression, as far as I am aware. In my opinion, when you like someone, that is usually triggered first by subconscious factors that you are unaware of, which I do admit are triggered by their behaviour and the things that they say, but cannot generally be manipulated, unless they already know a lot about you. I think these would be great guidelines for dating NTs, though - because this is exactly the logic employed by guys who "play the game" - I mean, it implies that modifying your behaviour to influence the situation (which can be construed as acting unnaturally or "not being yourself") will give you a greater chance of success, which is the principle behind how NT guys normally approach dating. For dating Aspies - I'm not so sure.

Not a giant criticism, but it sounds like someone translated NT dating for Aspies.



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05 Nov 2012, 2:43 am

It is quite literally exactly as you said it.

You have to realize though that as an AS person yourself (like I said) you 'think' more in black and white than in 'shades of grey'.
That might ring true for your thoughts but not necessarily ring true when it comes to your emotions!
Give that book a try and I guarantee it won't be a waste of your time.

Another good read regarding the whole 'dating game' I can recommend is Neil Strauss - The Game.
This is a book written by an NT male which in my opinion gives a good view of how (NT) dating 'works'.
I do strongly suggest reading Asperger Meets Girl first though and THEN reading The Game.
You'll be surprised by how much tips, hints and tricks from The Game are applied forms of the theory explained in Asperger Meets Girl.

All in all knowing what to do or how to do it is always a far ways removed from being able to apply it yourself but they do say a good preparation is half the battle right? :wink:

Be sure to reply here / PM me when/if you've read one or both of these books and share your thoughts on them, I'm curious! :D


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saraip
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05 Nov 2012, 2:51 am

I'll definitely give the book a read - but I couldn't read must of The Game because I found it too insulting personally (as a woman). None of the most popular tactics work on me - nor would I use any of them myself - and I see it mainly as proposing that you manipulate people into going out with you. Furthermore, the end-game seems to be to get as many women/people as possible to sleep with you! That's certainly not what I'm going for :D

I agree that being AS makes socialising seems more black and white, but I also think that it is important to realise that using NT tactics will only have limited success in the long term - cultivating and sustaining the relationship using NT tactics won't work because we're not NT, so even if I personally managed to "snag" a guy using NT tactics, my true character would no doubt come through once we started dating seriously and he would see me as a fraud. On the other hand, as you suggest, it does help to have some good guidelines and I definitely believe that reading from multiple sources is always a good idea. I guess it depends a lot on what your relationship goals are at the end of the day. I will definitely keep you posted though! :)



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05 Nov 2012, 12:13 pm

Yes The Game does seem to be more about 'the hunt' and 'scoring' than about actually cultivating a meaningful relationship.. however that doesn't mean the same tactics cannot be applied in that pursuit as well.
Really dating for the sake of 'getting laid' and dating for the sake of cultivating a true relationship might not be so different in the starting phases.
Trying to get laid you might push your luck a bit more and be more assertive (get her into bed as quickly as possible) but in the end it's the behaviour after you have accomplished this that either ends it as a one-night-stand or cultivates it into a relationship.

"my true character would no doubt come through once we started dating seriously and he would see me as a fraud"

You fail to realize here that this applies regardless of whether you are NT or AS and regardless of the dating methods used to 'snag' a partner.
In ANY relationship in the beginning it's all about euphoria, 'being in love' and head over heels crushes. You usually don't get to 'know' someone better until àfter this phase ends and that is when you both are confronted with the actual person instead of the idealized 'knight on white horse' or 'pure and innocent princess' you've deemed your partner to be. This period of disillusionment is often the phase where most relationships fall apart because you realize your partner isn't perfect and he/she does so too. Failure to come to terms with these flaws/quirks and failure to compromise and put effort into cultivation and growth which is needed to sustain a true loving relationship means most relationships don't last long beyond the euphoria of the 'in love' phase.

This is also the time (in my humble opinion) that it would be best to introduce your partner to the fact that you have AS. Before the disillusionment ends there's really no point as he/she will not be able to think about what this entails rationally as they are overcome with emotions and euphoria. Too much later on might be too late and they might feel cheated for not being informed timely.
Also if you introduce them to the fact just after the 'in love' phase has ended this means you won't be wasting much time on a relationship that would otherwise fail anyway due to your partners inability to cope.
It ALSO gives a good excuse to have a heart to heart regarding each other, your expectations, flaws, quirks and to make compromises and promises. In most relationships couples don't actually mark this period of time properly or treat it with the attention it deserves which can lead to problems later on but having AS gives you a good excuse to properly go over the 'relationship parameters' I think.

Suffice it to say you shouldn't feel like you are a fraud simply because you make yourself out to be more 'NT' or more 'ideal' during the dating phase and the 'in love' phase.. everyone does this and it is quite normal. I'd go so far as to say it's a biological safe-guard to ensure humans actually end up in relationships despite their individualistic and over-ambitious partner requirements. Having had a 1-3 month 'in love' period behind you before being confronted with an actual person in all his/her individualistic ideals and thoughts at least gives you somewhat of a buffer to cope and relativate.
That's just my theory though. :lol:


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05 Nov 2012, 3:56 pm

saraip wrote:
I'll definitely give the book a read - but I couldn't read must of The Game because I found it too insulting personally (as a woman). None of the most popular tactics work on me - nor would I use any of them myself - and I see it mainly as proposing that you manipulate people into going out with you. Furthermore, the end-game seems to be to get as many women/people as possible to sleep with you! That's certainly not what I'm going for :D

I agree that being AS makes socialising seems more black and white, but I also think that it is important to realise that using NT tactics will only have limited success in the long term - cultivating and sustaining the relationship using NT tactics won't work because we're not NT, so even if I personally managed to "snag" a guy using NT tactics, my true character would no doubt come through once we started dating seriously and he would see me as a fraud. On the other hand, as you suggest, it does help to have some good guidelines and I definitely believe that reading from multiple sources is always a good idea. I guess it depends a lot on what your relationship goals are at the end of the day. I will definitely keep you posted though! :)


yeah but i'm wondering since i have asperger syndrome, maybe "The Game" by Neil Strauss is only meant for NT men who are struggling



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05 Nov 2012, 11:05 pm

AyporosFM wrote:
Yes The Game does seem to be more about 'the hunt' and 'scoring' than about actually cultivating a meaningful relationship.. however that doesn't mean the same tactics cannot be applied in that pursuit as well.
Really dating for the sake of 'getting laid' and dating for the sake of cultivating a true relationship might not be so different in the starting phases.
Trying to get laid you might push your luck a bit more and be more assertive (get her into bed as quickly as possible) but in the end it's the behaviour after you have accomplished this that either ends it as a one-night-stand or cultivates it into a relationship.


I'm afraid I don't agree with this at all. Perhaps from a guy's point of view, that might be the case, but from a girl's point of view, that's certainly not the case. Women who are only in it for the chase by definition have to be more flirtatious, initiate and sustain more eye and physical contact and be more sexually aggressive from the outset, as well as dress more provocatively and care more about their appearance. Otherwise there is no illusion of being someone's fantasy shag. It's true that some relationships start out as one-night stands, but I am hard-pressed to find any of those relationships which have actually been successful (i.e. lasted and ended in long-term committment). I think the end goal of the relationship plays a big role in how you choose to start it.

AyporosFM wrote:
You fail to realize here that this applies regardless of whether you are NT or AS and regardless of the dating methods used to 'snag' a partner.
In ANY relationship in the beginning it's all about euphoria, 'being in love' and head over heels crushes. You usually don't get to 'know' someone better until àfter this phase ends and that is when you both are confronted with the actual person instead of the idealized 'knight on white horse' or 'pure and innocent princess' you've deemed your partner to be. This period of disillusionment is often the phase where most relationships fall apart because you realize your partner isn't perfect and he/she does so too. Failure to come to terms with these flaws/quirks and failure to compromise and put effort into cultivation and growth which is needed to sustain a true loving relationship means most relationships don't last long beyond the euphoria of the 'in love' phase.


Again, I don't think this is the case. It's certainly the case if the basis for the relationship is a mutual physical attraction - which I'm not criticising. When you like someone, however, and the other person doesn't yet like you or still needs time to get to know you, the start of a relationship is very different. I'm not saying there isn't an "in love" phase, but it certainly happens a bit later than right in the beginning. I think it is very different with Aspies as well because we tend to over-rationalise everything, making an "in love" phase very hard to sustain without constant pretence, which, let's face it, Aspies are less able to do.

Now, taking into account what I said about about women who are in it purely for sex - Aspie girls aren't like that. You could possibly pretend for a few hours, but the fact that eye and physical contact are unbearable would be the first giveaway. (On re-reading this, I realise that the fact that you aren't wearing the latest fashion, don't spend as much time on hair and make up and show no real body language might be the first giveaway). If you switched those behaviours on and then later switched them off, the person would interpret this as a lack of interest and that would be it. That's what I mean by being exposed as a fraud.

Personally, I like to get the AS out in the open even before dating comes onto the table, because I don't feel comfortable dating people I don't know. I tend to have crushes only on people I am already socially acquainted, and being approached by strangers makes me incredibly uncomfortable and I have never given out my number (bear in mind, I despise talking on the phone as well) to a guy who has asked for it. Does this limit my dating potential? Yes, it certainly does. On the other hand, it gives me a sufficient level of comfort that when there is dating potential, my Aspie traits aren't going to be what blows the deal. Well, granted, they may be at some point down the line.

AyporosFM wrote:
Suffice it to say you shouldn't feel like you are a fraud simply because you make yourself out to be more 'NT' or more 'ideal' during the dating phase and the 'in love' phase.. everyone does this and it is quite normal. I'd go so far as to say it's a biological safe-guard to ensure humans actually end up in relationships despite their individualistic and over-ambitious partner requirements. Having had a 1-3 month 'in love' period behind you before being confronted with an actual person in all his/her individualistic ideals and thoughts at least gives you somewhat of a buffer to cope and relativate.
That's just my theory though.


I shouldn't have said "feel like a fraud", I should have said "be a fraud", because I would have to do a lot of pretending, and that ultimately would not be honest. I personally wouldn't enjoy it, nor would I enjoy someone doing it to me. I believe in setting expectations upfront, but that's just my personal approach. At the end of the day, we each do what works best for us, and all I'm saying is, the NT approach doesn't work for me. I've had my experiences with it and find it to be incredibly unrewarding. I also think that my previous approaches with guys could use some work, but at the moment, I'm not socially active at all (for various reasons, one of which being I've moved to a smaller town so I can spend less money so I can save up to carry on studying new subjects). It is great to think about all of these things during the down-time from society.

By the way, most studies show that the "in love" phase usually lasts a few years, i.e. long enough for people to get married and stick together in a purposeful sense ;) If you're calling it at 1 - 3 months, chances are that it was infatuation and not being "in love". In that case, the person probably was a bit of a fraud.



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06 Nov 2012, 1:29 am

Oh, yes.. I was definitely referring to the 'infatuation' stage as you call it when I said 'in love'.

Reading your post I agree that The Game most probably isn't going to help you.

Regarding your disagreement:
You are probably right. What I wrote down is how I believe it to be possible based on my knowledge and (limited) experience and I agree your viewpoints sound very agreeable to me.
I've always tried to be as 'NT' as possible (not knowing I had AS) and have lead quite a 'normal' teenage life which has caused me to 'adopt' certain NT aspects when it comes to dating..


I agree that you shouldn't feel uncomfortable or a fraud during your dating process. If it makes you feel bad it probably isn't worth it.
I was just stating the fact that it is quite normal/common in case you thought it was undesirable from a social/community standpoint and not a personal dislike.

Good luck anyway in your dating endeavours! :)


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