All arguments that involve you being blamed on you-AS traits

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daydreamer84
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26 Aug 2012, 8:44 pm

I had a family dinner tonight and my mom was driving my sister back to her separate house with her boyfriend and then driving herself and I back to our place. My mom and sister were talking about the dinner and the meat and how long it was etc. I was quiet in the backseat not talking, but then decided to join the conversation, interjecting a couple comments. One of the times I tried to speak I did interrupt my sister....she had more to say on the topic she was talking about and I didn't realize....but everyone interrupts sometimes. My comments were completely ignored....mys sister just quickly went on about whatever she was talking about with my mom. Anyways later on in the conversation my mom was talking about how she has to push herself to go to meetings with her Karate class.....they all go out on outings sometimes and invite her.....but my mom is a bit shy and introverted and doesn't like socializing that much. She was saying that they always go out late at night and she likes going to bed early ect. SO I said that" I figure you know what you like and don't like (especially after 59 years of life) and you don't like these kind of gatherings..... you shouldn't make yourself go to them). My sister said in a loud voice with a lot of emotion "that's a horrible thing to say.....you should always try new things at no matter what age". I argued that it wasn't about trying new things....she's had a lot of experience with loud crowded gatherings with new people...and didn't like them. My sister kept arguing emphatically that it doesn't mean she hates all social gatherings. I said that what I was saying was based on conversations I had with my mom in the past where she said she didn't like these things and I related to her...and that I decided not to push myself to do things that made me uncomfortable anymore.... and my sister said "just because somethings doesn't work for you doesn't mean it's the same with everyone else" in an angry/annoyed or some kind of negative voice tone. Then she abruptly changed the topic and was telling my mom about the landmarks along the way to her boyfriends house. I tried to bring up the topic again but she said she needed to tell my mom about the landmarks. Then after a few minutes of her talking about the landmarks when she finally paused I tried to explain what I was talking about and how I just thought you shouldn't have to push yourself to do something that you don't enjoy, then my sister says in a raised voice "well that's her decision to make, isn't it?" and then abruptly changes the subject again and starts talking to my mom. I continue to defend myself and but my sister snaps "I was talking about something else". Then my mom says we have to stop arguing so she can concentrate on driving. End of incident.

Later when my mom and I discuss the incident (after my sister has left) my mom blames me for going on and on - arguing too much and being rigid and stubborn. It's true that I am like this and I did go on and on but my sister was also, and I think even more in the wrong in this case. One shouldn't make an accusation/strong argument and then abruptly change the subject. When I pointed this out to my mom she agreed with this but said really I'm an adult and I just had to learn to let things go and proceeded to start lecturing me about letting things go! I feel like no matter what the situation is I'll always be the one who is stubborn, rigid and irrational in her mind (and others in my family) and my side of things won't get fairly looked at. It's not just this one case.......it seems like I'm almost always blamed for big and little incidents with others in the family because of my AS characteristics. It's the first things she thinks of if something goes wrong involving me.



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26 Aug 2012, 9:07 pm

daydreamer84 wrote:
One shouldn't make an accusation/strong argument and then abruptly change the subject.


I so agree on that one. And I'd add "...abruptly change the subject when they're proven wrong." It seems to be a common way of debating for many people. 8O That and sophisms, demagogy... I've learned not to try to convince those who argue that way. It's really big loss of time and energy. But I admit that, with family et close relatives, emotions being involved, it's harder to just drop the subject...



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26 Aug 2012, 9:12 pm

Wow. It sounds like you were supporting your mother by pointing out a choice she could make that would actually have been nice for her and got criticized by her in the end, not just argued against by your sister. I can't understand that sort of thing. It's not like you were telling your mother what to do. All you did was point out that it's okay to take a different course if you want to. Lots of people get to a point at which they feel they know their own minds and decide not to do certain things anymore. What's wrong with that? It seems to me that your sister was automatically dismissive of your opinion on the matter and generally disinterested in anything you might have to say anyway.

I'm fortunate that my circumstances seem to have improved so that I'm not exposed so much to that sort of thing, but it made me think of how I'd get accused, as a kid, of being oversensitive whenever someone said anything hurtful to me. I know it was sometimes true, and I also now know that sometimes I thought someone was being unkind when they really didn't mean any harm, because I simply didn't understand the situation. But that doesn't mean I was always wrong. Sometimes kids really do get bullied for real. Being sensitive doesn't mean all hurt feelings come from making something out of nothing.

You get labeled or thought of in a certain way, and then it seems some people will never see you any differently. That sucks. :(


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daydreamer84
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26 Aug 2012, 9:31 pm

MindWithoutWalls wrote:
Wow. It sounds like you were supporting your mother by pointing out a choice she could make that would actually have been nice for her and got criticized by her in the end, not just argued against by your sister. I can't understand that sort of thing. It's not like you were telling your mother what to do. All you did was point out that it's okay to take a different course if you want to. Lots of people get to a point at which they feel they know their own minds and decide not to do certain things anymore. What's wrong with that? It seems to me that your sister was automatically dismissive of your opinion on the matter and generally disinterested in anything you might have to say anyway.

I'm fortunate that my circumstances seem to have improved so that I'm not exposed so much to that sort of thing, but it made me think of how I'd get accused, as a kid, of being oversensitive whenever someone said anything hurtful to me. I know it was sometimes true, and I also now know that sometimes I thought someone was being unkind when they really didn't mean any harm, because I simply didn't understand the situation. But that doesn't mean I was always wrong. Sometimes kids really do get bullied for real. Being sensitive doesn't mean all hurt feelings come from making something out of nothing.

You get labeled or thought of in a certain way, and then it seems some people will never see you any differently. That sucks. :(


Exactly....people just form an impression of you, (that you're oversensitive, stubborn etc.) and then the details of the situation you're in don't matter any more the person just thinks "oh its just you being acting X(stubborn, over sensitive or whatever)! I'm glad your situation improved.

Like you said I just wanted to support my mom and make her feel like she didn't have to push herself to be more social just because it's something that is enjoyable for other people or enriches their lives if she doesn't enjoy it. I felt that I needed to make this clear because my sister was making it sound like I was trying to make a decision for my mom or something. Also she was dismissive of what I have to say.....



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26 Aug 2012, 10:23 pm

I would have acted in the exact same way!! I think what you suggested to your Mum was a very understanding and caring thing. We all know what it is like to push ourselves to do things others expect of us when we have learnt we don't enjoy it. And it isn't like you were saying that your Mum should never go to social gatherings anymore, just that she didn't have to go to them if she didn't want to. You were helping her consider the idea that she could give herself permission to do what worked best for her even if it goes against the majority.

I wonder what caused your sister's reaction?



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26 Aug 2012, 10:33 pm

when someone changes the subject you should just drop it. it took me many years to learn this.



daydreamer84
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27 Aug 2012, 12:28 am

analyser23 wrote:
I wonder what caused your sister's reaction?


Well I did have an annoyed tone of voice too according to my mom....I don't really notice when that happens....and do show my emotions.....too much. Maybe I conveyed something to her without meaning to?

Also my sister is an interesting creature.....she is hyper-NT (which is interesting since both my parents have autistic traits) meaning she is very socially adroit and just finds relating to people really natural and easy and she is a paragon of mental health, no depression or anxiety, gets over stress quickly etc. She hasn't had a perfect life or anything...she has some physical problems like severe food allergies and a condition that means she'll likely have difficulty having children when she wants to (but otherwise won't impair her life). Anyways she seems to be of the opinion that mental or neurological problems can be overcome by sheer force of will. I have gone through clinical depression and she was very unsympathetic towards me and when her good friend was going through it she said to another friend that she just has to"snap out of it". She once said to me about a friend who she thought was insecure that if she felt insecure she would do something about it..buy makeup, do her hair, lose wight if anxious about her looks, get a degree if insecure about not enough education etc. I tried to argue that not everyone can do these things even if it would help them....but she disagreed..said they could find a way...didn't get it. When I got my diagnoses as a kid (AS, ADHD, NVLD) she said there was nothing wrong with me and I just needed to work harder, so even as a kid she thought this way. However she can be very very kind and has volunteered with homeless people and has a great deal of compassion for some disadvantaged people (physically ill and homeless people for example). Anyways I don;t think she likes the idea of my mom just not going to social events because she doesn't enjoy them, her way of thinking would be more like she should do what she needs to do to make herself enjoy them.



daydreamer84
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27 Aug 2012, 12:36 am

chris5000 wrote:
when someone changes the subject you should just drop it. it took me many years to learn this.


Well this is very true.....I'm really bad with that...I hate being interrupted/derailed. In this situation I was just angry though and felt the need to defend myself. Still......I probably should have let it go...........I'm bad at that too. :lol:



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27 Aug 2012, 2:12 am

daydreamer84 wrote:
analyser23 wrote:
. Anyways she seems to be of the opinion that mental or neurological problems can be overcome by sheer force of will. I have gone through clinical depression and she was very unsympathetic towards me and when her good friend was going through it she said to another friend that she just has to"snap out of it". She once said to me about a friend who she thought was insecure that if she felt insecure she would do something about it..buy makeup, do her hair, lose wight if anxious about her looks, get a degree if insecure about not enough education etc. I tried to argue that not everyone can do these things even if it would help them....but she disagreed..said they could find a way...didn't get it. When I got my diagnoses as a kid (AS, ADHD, NVLD) she said there was nothing wrong with me and I just needed to work harder, so even as a kid she thought this way.


I think what was said there is revealing in terms of thought process. The thought process can be applied to almost anything. For example:

People say maths is hard -> but I find maths easy -> so maths must be easy -> therefore maths is easy and they just need to study harder.

(If you'd like to know the technical side, its an error in logic called false attribution and psychologists fallacy)



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27 Aug 2012, 2:26 am

daydreamer84 wrote:
I had a family dinner tonight and my mom was driving my sister back to her separate house with her boyfriend and then driving herself and I back to our place. My mom and sister were talking about the dinner and the meat and how long it was etc. I was quiet in the backseat not talking, but then decided to join the conversation, interjecting a couple comments. One of the times I tried to speak I did interrupt my sister....she had more to say on the topic she was talking about and I didn't realize....but everyone interrupts sometimes. My comments were completely ignored....mys sister just quickly went on about whatever she was talking about with my mom. Anyways later on in the conversation my mom was talking about how she has to push herself to go to meetings with her Karate class.....they all go out on outings sometimes and invite her.....but my mom is a bit shy and introverted and doesn't like socializing that much. She was saying that they always go out late at night and she likes going to bed early ect. SO I said that" I figure you know what you like and don't like (especially after 59 years of life) and you don't like these kind of gatherings..... you shouldn't make yourself go to them). My sister said in a loud voice with a lot of emotion "that's a horrible thing to say.....you should always try new things at no matter what age". I argued that it wasn't about trying new things....she's had a lot of experience with loud crowded gatherings with new people...and didn't like them. My sister kept arguing emphatically that it doesn't mean she hates all social gatherings. I said that what I was saying was based on conversations I had with my mom in the past where she said she didn't like these things and I related to her...and that I decided not to push myself to do things that made me uncomfortable anymore.... and my sister said "just because somethings doesn't work for you doesn't mean it's the same with everyone else" in an angry/annoyed or some kind of negative voice tone. Then she abruptly changed the topic and was telling my mom about the landmarks along the way to her boyfriends house. I tried to bring up the topic again but she said she needed to tell my mom about the landmarks. Then after a few minutes of her talking about the landmarks when she finally paused I tried to explain what I was talking about and how I just thought you shouldn't have to push yourself to do something that you don't enjoy, then my sister says in a raised voice "well that's her decision to make, isn't it?" and then abruptly changes the subject again and starts talking to my mom. I continue to defend myself and but my sister snaps "I was talking about something else". Then my mom says we have to stop arguing so she can concentrate on driving. End of incident.

Later when my mom and I discuss the incident (after my sister has left) my mom blames me for going on and on - arguing too much and being rigid and stubborn. It's true that I am like this and I did go on and on but my sister was also, and I think even more in the wrong in this case. One shouldn't make an accusation/strong argument and then abruptly change the subject. When I pointed this out to my mom she agreed with this but said really I'm an adult and I just had to learn to let things go and proceeded to start lecturing me about letting things go! I feel like no matter what the situation is I'll always be the one who is stubborn, rigid and irrational in her mind (and others in my family) and my side of things won't get fairly looked at. It's not just this one case.......it seems like I'm almost always blamed for big and little incidents with others in the family because of my AS characteristics. It's the first things she thinks of if something goes wrong involving me.


your sister manipulated your mother.
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27 Aug 2012, 5:29 am

I was once accused of throwing autistic tantrums by some moron who felt it was necessary to: lose an argument, then attack me in another thread, then lose the argument, then attack me in another thread, in a vicious cycle wherein he could only cope with his profound stupidity by externalizing the ridiculous behavior and blaming me for it. He is now temp banned for harassing me by telling me I'm a mass murderer because, well, he lost the argument about the guy who was "arrested" for his FB posts last week and all of the sudden didn't show up in that thread anymore after the judge ordered him to be released, and insinuating that I sympathize with "Loughner and Holmes" and decided to attack me in another thread after that.



daydreamer84
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27 Aug 2012, 11:54 am

benr3600 wrote:
I was once accused of throwing autistic tantrums by some moron who felt it was necessary to: lose an argument, then attack me in another thread, then lose the argument, then attack me in another thread, in a vicious cycle wherein he could only cope with his profound stupidity by externalizing the ridiculous behavior and blaming me for it. He is now temp banned for harassing me by telling me I'm a mass murderer because, well, he lost the argument about the guy who was "arrested" for his FB posts last week and all of the sudden didn't show up in that thread anymore after the judge ordered him to be released, and insinuating that I sympathize with "Loughner and Holmes" and decided to attack me in another thread after that.


8O I'm glad he was banned.



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27 Aug 2012, 12:06 pm

cherrycoke wrote:
daydreamer84 wrote:
analyser23 wrote:
. Anyways she seems to be of the opinion that mental or neurological problems can be overcome by sheer force of will. I have gone through clinical depression and she was very unsympathetic towards me and when her good friend was going through it she said to another friend that she just has to"snap out of it". She once said to me about a friend who she thought was insecure that if she felt insecure she would do something about it..buy makeup, do her hair, lose wight if anxious about her looks, get a degree if insecure about not enough education etc. I tried to argue that not everyone can do these things even if it would help them....but she disagreed..said they could find a way...didn't get it. When I got my diagnoses as a kid (AS, ADHD, NVLD) she said there was nothing wrong with me and I just needed to work harder, so even as a kid she thought this way.


I think what was said there is revealing in terms of thought process. The thought process can be applied to almost anything. For example:

People say maths is hard -> but I find maths easy -> so maths must be easy -> therefore maths is easy and they just need to study harder.

(If you'd like to know the technical side, its an error in logic called false attribution and psychologists fallacy)


Yes it is false attribution....she's never had problems handling stress or making/keeping friends so these things must be easy and those who find them hard are just not working hard enough/doing it right etc. It's so frustrating because she's very intelligent (IQ in the genius range) and she is very sympathetic and kind in some ways (volunteered with elderly people and homeless people as a kid etc.). but has a kind of mental block when it comes to mental illness or invisible disabilities etc.



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27 Aug 2012, 12:17 pm

It seems like in their minds, we are merely drooling m*ngoloids who do not have the capacity to think and have no right to possess opinions. The "normals" are perfect, while we are not to be believed because our condition somehow magically skews reality. We're on the spectrum; we are not delusional.



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27 Aug 2012, 12:28 pm

I don't know if this is relavent but often when I'm having an outburst, I get accused of having one every week. I know I don't have a full-blown outburst every week, because I record when I do have them in a diary, and it turns out I have an outburst about twice a year. I have mini outbursts a lot, but they aren't really much to speak of, and they don't upset the whole family or make me feel bad or anything like that. You might just say they are just general ''stroppy'' moments, like we all have. But according to my mum, I have the type of outbursts that upset everyone else and involve me hitting my face and crying and screaming, every week :roll: . When I was at the doctors, I said to the doctor that anger and resentment builds up, and every 6-8 months I go into a signifficant panic resulting into an angry outburst, involving slapping myself and screaming and crying, but my mum butted in and said ''no, you have them all the time.''

Ohhh, how do I reason with this????! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! ! I think if I had one of those every week, I think everybody would've committed suicide by now!


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27 Aug 2012, 3:47 pm

Joe90 wrote:
I don't know if this is relavent but often when I'm having an outburst, I get accused of having one every week. I know I don't have a full-blown outburst every week, because I record when I do have them in a diary, and it turns out I have an outburst about twice a year. I have mini outbursts a lot, but they aren't really much to speak of, and they don't upset the whole family or make me feel bad or anything like that. You might just say they are just general ''stroppy'' moments, like we all have. But according to my mum, I have the type of outbursts that upset everyone else and involve me hitting my face and crying and screaming, every week :roll: . When I was at the doctors, I said to the doctor that anger and resentment builds up, and every 6-8 months I go into a signifficant panic resulting into an angry outburst, involving slapping myself and screaming and crying, but my mum butted in and said ''no, you have them all the time.''

Ohhh, how do I reason with this????! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! !! ! I think if I had one of those every week, I think everybody would've committed suicide by now!


I hate it when parents do that. I was having a full on, major "outburst" like the type you described yesterday. I really don't have them all that often but my dad was accusing me of never letting him have a life of his own and always expecting him to fix everything for me (really not the case). It only ever really happens when I am really anxious or upset and somebody verbally attacks me for being that way. I'm not saying I'm perfect but really, not letting him have a life? That is total bs, I see him like once a week at most. I think sometimes when people are pissed off they wildly exaggerate and we are interpreting it literally. But you'd think they would have learned after 20 odd years that those kind of exaggerations are likely to push some buttons.