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Jitro
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28 Aug 2012, 4:59 pm

I don't believe people choose to be gay. I just think that "why would anyone choose to be gay because of all the hatred they get" is a poor argument against it being one. People make odd choices, regardless of the consequences that follow them.



AngelRho
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28 Aug 2012, 5:32 pm

visagrunt wrote:
I think the better argument is, "do people choose to be straight?"

I suspect that there are many people who mistakenly confusing making choices about our sexual behaviour with making choices about our sexual orientation. A person can, after all, choose to be celibate regardless of sexual orientation. This does not mean that they are asexual; it merely means that they have chosen not to engage in sexual activity.

But that does not mean that every person can make such a choice. Sexuality is integral to who we are, and is a necessary component to a healthy life for most people.

I agree with you up to your last paragraph. At one point, later in my college years, I'd go into delirium tremens if I didn't regularly have sex a few times a week. Now I'm raising three kids, all 5 and under in age, and I'm lucky to have sex once a month. I'm doing ok.



SpiritBlooms
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28 Aug 2012, 5:35 pm

SpiritBlooms wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
I think the better argument is, "do people choose to be straight?"
Yes! In fact there's a great video of someone interviewing people on the street, asking them when they chose to be straight. :)

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QJtjqLUHYoY[/youtube]



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28 Aug 2012, 5:44 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
Tiranasta wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Tiranasta wrote:
Then we are arguing over semantics. To me, even eating is a choice. Regarding your last sentence, I'm curious, what if the person is asexual?


You have a strange idea of choice in a binary situation where one scenario ends in death.

In the case of person being asexual, again their lack of sexual attraction is wired into their brain, so again no choice is involved.

The way I view it, if two or more options exist and one (or a subset) must be selected, a choice is present, even if all options but one are obviously untenable. I believe that this is consistent with the dictionary definition of choice.


So..if you agree to do something against your will because I have a gun pointed at your head then your decision to obey me rather than die is a "choice".

Is that what you are saying?

Yes. It's also coercion.



visagrunt
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28 Aug 2012, 5:44 pm

AngelRho wrote:
I agree with you up to your last paragraph. At one point, later in my college years, I'd go into delirium tremens if I didn't regularly have sex a few times a week. Now I'm raising three kids, all 5 and under in age, and I'm lucky to have sex once a month. I'm doing ok.


Yes, but your sex drive changes in life. Comparing your sex drive as a young person to your sex life as a parent is a bit like comparing apples and carbon nanotubes.


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Jitro
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28 Aug 2012, 5:49 pm

Do people choose to like the taste of candy, cookies or pizza? I guess that's similar to asking whether or not people choose to be gay.



SpiritBlooms
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28 Aug 2012, 6:05 pm

visagrunt wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
I agree with you up to your last paragraph. At one point, later in my college years, I'd go into delirium tremens if I didn't regularly have sex a few times a week. Now I'm raising three kids, all 5 and under in age, and I'm lucky to have sex once a month. I'm doing ok.


Yes, but your sex drive changes in life. Comparing your sex drive as a young person to your sex life as a parent is a bit like comparing apples and carbon nanotubes.

But that's libido, not sexual orientation. Yes, libido changes over time and in different states of physical or mental health and at different ages, as well as because of medications. Sexual orientation doesn't typically change.



naturalplastic
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28 Aug 2012, 6:20 pm

Tiranasta wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Tiranasta wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Tiranasta wrote:
Then we are arguing over semantics. To me, even eating is a choice. Regarding your last sentence, I'm curious, what if the person is asexual?


You have a strange idea of choice in a binary situation where one scenario ends in death.

In the case of person being asexual, again their lack of sexual attraction is wired into their brain, so again no choice is involved.

The way I view it, if two or more options exist and one (or a subset) must be selected, a choice is present, even if all options but one are obviously untenable. I believe that this is consistent with the dictionary definition of choice.


So..if you agree to do something against your will because I have a gun pointed at your head then your decision to obey me rather than die is a "choice".

Is that what you are saying?

Yes. It's also coercion.


So homosexuals are coerced by nature into being homosexual?



OliveOilMom
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28 Aug 2012, 6:22 pm

You don't choose who you are attracted to. Some are attacted to the same sex, some are attracted to the opposite sex, some are attracted to both sexes, and some aren't attracted to anyone of either sex. The people who go around screaming that gay people have a choice and chose to be gay, obviously had to make the choice to be straight themselves.

Having sex, whether it's gay or straight, is always a choice. Nuns and priests choose to not have sex, and their orientation shouldn't matter because they are celibate. Some people can choose to have sex with a gender they aren't attracted to for whatever reason, but everyone can't do that.

The closest situation to someone choosing to be gay (or straight) that I can think of is if someone is bisexual and chooses to be exclusively with someone of whichever gender. Either way, they are still bisexual, but if they are in a relationship with someone they will be seen as gay or straight.


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Kurgan
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28 Aug 2012, 6:33 pm

Do people choose to have Asperger's, ADHD, Tourette's or to simply be neurotypical? Homosexuality is not a choice.



Fnord
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28 Aug 2012, 7:10 pm

Kurgan wrote:
Do people choose to have Asperger's, ADHD, Tourette's or to simply be neurotypical? Homosexuality is not a choice.

False analogy.

Homosexuality has not been proven to be a disorder; AS, ADHD, and TS have.


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naturalplastic
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28 Aug 2012, 7:38 pm

Fnord wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Do people choose to have Asperger's, ADHD, Tourette's or to simply be neurotypical? Homosexuality is not a choice.

False analogy.

Homosexuality has not been proven to be a disorder; AS, ADHD, and TS have.


Not sure how the fact that is or is not a "disorder" is even relevant.

The fact is that you dont "choose" to have AS, or ADHD, or TS. Likewise you dont choose to be gay, or to be straight. To just stop being gay is about as easy as choosing to stop being autistic.



haidouk
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28 Aug 2012, 10:04 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Homosexuals are homosexual because they are neurologically programmed to be attracted to the same sex. They don't choose to be gay anymore than we choose to be autistic.

Quite frankly i'm disgusted we would see such pig ignorance on an autism forum, of all places.

Ha! You took the words right out of my mouth.

Also though, I wouldn't say "they" and "we": This implies autistic people are something separate from this. It also implies an assumed exclusion of gay people from your audience, or from this community. This is not so. There are gay autistic people just as there are gay NTs. Gay people are not absent from anything. There are gay people participating in this thread--it's their thread as much as it is anyone else's. Straights don't own autism. NT's don't own homosexuality.

Autism is one part of a person's being--yet there are others as well. Sexual orientation would be one of them.



AngelRho
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28 Aug 2012, 10:28 pm

SpiritBlooms wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
AngelRho wrote:
I agree with you up to your last paragraph. At one point, later in my college years, I'd go into delirium tremens if I didn't regularly have sex a few times a week. Now I'm raising three kids, all 5 and under in age, and I'm lucky to have sex once a month. I'm doing ok.


Yes, but your sex drive changes in life. Comparing your sex drive as a young person to your sex life as a parent is a bit like comparing apples and carbon nanotubes.

But that's libido, not sexual orientation. Yes, libido changes over time and in different states of physical or mental health and at different ages, as well as because of medications. Sexual orientation doesn't typically change.

No, the libido is still there. What has changed is opportunity.



Tiranasta
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29 Aug 2012, 2:34 am

naturalplastic wrote:
Tiranasta wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
Tiranasta wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
Tiranasta wrote:
Then we are arguing over semantics. To me, even eating is a choice. Regarding your last sentence, I'm curious, what if the person is asexual?


You have a strange idea of choice in a binary situation where one scenario ends in death.

In the case of person being asexual, again their lack of sexual attraction is wired into their brain, so again no choice is involved.

The way I view it, if two or more options exist and one (or a subset) must be selected, a choice is present, even if all options but one are obviously untenable. I believe that this is consistent with the dictionary definition of choice.


So..if you agree to do something against your will because I have a gun pointed at your head then your decision to obey me rather than die is a "choice".

Is that what you are saying?

Yes. It's also coercion.


So homosexuals are coerced by nature into being homosexual?


I never said anything like that. I said that homosexuality is not a choice (even if you have a gun to your head, you have the option, however undesirable the outcome, of disobeying, but a homosexual never has the option of not being homosexual, therefore it's not a choice), but that acting on it is. I didn't mean to imply that it was a somehow immoral or incorrect choice, but a choice in the same sense that heterosexuals acting on their heterosexuality is.



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29 Aug 2012, 10:56 am

thomas81 wrote:
Quite frankly i'm disgusted we would see such pig ignorance on an autism forum, of all places.
I've seen enough of it on WP to be convinced that we shouldn't put ourselves on such a pedestal.