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olympiadis
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01 Oct 2015, 12:24 am

voleregard wrote:
GiantHockeyFan wrote:
I mentioned to someone I got a 96 average in my recent college courses and I was later told that was pompous and arrogant. WTF? It's an objective fact!

Yes, and objective facts shared within a social context without being transmitted in relational terms by use of inclusive and inviting wording and body language will be perceived as cold, and therefore pompous and arrogant. Not saying it's right or wrong, but I learned the hard way that this is just the playing field that's out there. Watch a video of Richard Feynman teaching, and you'll see someone overcoming the potential barriers of facts by injecting a relational tone to them.

Objective facts hold no bridge-building power in relationship. And an NT will always be extracting "relationship" data from anything we say, either to determine status or subtext or whether you're trying to include them or exclude them with what we say. Because that's how they're hard-wired. The non-science world loved Feynman (and Carl Sagan) because they were able to build that bridge beyond facts to make it a sharing relationship.

There is no dispassionate fact-sharing in the NT world unless you're content with being regarded as a lifeless robot. Or being called a poindexter. That's how they will see us because they inject their hierarchical perspective and relationship seeking into every interaction they have. And if they see you as someone who shares facts and doesn't care how that will affect them, they'll interpret that as pompous or arrogant or conceited.





I agree with everything here except the part about NTs being hardwired that way, though they may be hardwired with the predisposition. I don't think they are born with this social software. I think they are infected with mind viruses during the assimilation process, and constantly since.



GiantHockeyFan
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01 Oct 2015, 7:21 am

voleregard wrote:
I think autistics are more prone to gravitate to those who share information of interest, where NTs desire relationship and communicate this interest as kind of a carrier wave onto the words they use to interact. It's a hard-learned lesson, one I wish I'd known years ago.

This would explain why I came back here after I retired. I just could not find anyone else who seemed to 'get' me. It would also explain why looking back, ALL my friends growing up had either a learning disability or OCD/ADHD traits if not a full diagnosis. I do remember being at a work seminar and the facilitator was telling us to be more 'empathetic' to others problems. One of the IT guys jumped in and said "What's there to be empathetic about when they are wrong? I don't need to value their opinion because it is wrong." Me and him get along!

Quote:
Depends on the context, to some degree. But generally, yes, that's it. Like the example you provided of sharing a test score. I remember people playing guessing games to make it into a relational activity instead of just telling each other their score. One approach conveys no interest or care about the listener. The other involves them and indicates caring and development of their relationship.

Tried that in the past and it usually ends with a "just tell me the mark/score/number." Can't win.



voleregard
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03 Oct 2015, 5:04 pm

GiantHockeyFan wrote:
voleregard wrote:
I remember people playing guessing games to make it into a relational activity instead of just telling each other their score.

Tried that in the past and it usually ends with a "just tell me the mark/score/number." Can't win.

Depends on how you presented the invitation. If people have reason to suspect they're not going to look good at the end of the exchange, they're not going to invest much or risk much in the interaction. Also, the game approach usually only works well if there's a chance of the other person having a higher score. The enjoyment comes when there is a possibility that they'll turn out to have a higher score and can enjoy their moment of moving up the hierarchy.

If you're always the one getting 98's and 100's, it's kind of like having Bobby Fischer inviting you to a game of chess. At some point, it just looks boastful and arrogant. And there's always context, variables, history of the relationship, and a general vibe to consider. And the hive-mind virus.


Not sure if I should break this into a new thread, but the hive hierarchy does relate to the pompous perception:
olympiadis wrote:
voleregard wrote:
And an NT will always be extracting "relationship" data from anything we say, either to determine status or subtext or whether you're trying to include them or exclude them with what we say. Because that's how they're hard-wired.

I agree with everything here except the part about NTs being hardwired that way, though they may be hardwired with the predisposition. I don't think they are born with this social software. I think they are infected with mind viruses during the assimilation process, and constantly since.

I'm asking more about this to explore and learn. You're referring to the NT hierarchical engagement facility as a type of social software.

I guess I was thinking that it was more a hardware thing. I mean, I was exposed to the same downloads and programs as my sister, but she's fully NT.

Knowing that certain autistic traits can be attributed to anomalies in brain structure, what do you think is the nature of the predisposition to the hive virus? Is it that the NT biology is arranged in such a way that the NT is predisposed to assimilate? And if you're referring to this hierarchy-membership as a result of a virus, are you thinking that the viral infection is the more true state of the human, or is freedom from the virus the more true state? Not sure how to word that but I hope it conveys my meaning.



Nicola2206
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03 Oct 2015, 6:22 pm

DerekD_Goldfish wrote:
Yes I often come accros as pompous
I tend to walk into a paked room and have both a superiority complex and a inferiority complex at the smae time.
Which means I can come accros as pompous, Arrogant and rude while also being shy and uncomfortable .
Its a interesting mix


Same here! :lol:

My sister tells me I'm arrogant/pompous/snob etc.


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Your neurodiverse (Aspie) score: 173 of 200
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You are very likely neurodiverse (Aspie)

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Empathizing - systemizing mixed test version results


olympiadis
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03 Oct 2015, 9:55 pm

voleregard wrote:
Depends on how you presented the invitation. If people have reason to suspect they're not going to look good at the end of the exchange, they're not going to invest much or risk much in the interaction. Also, the game approach usually only works well if there's a chance of the other person having a higher score. The enjoyment comes when there is a possibility that they'll turn out to have a higher score and can enjoy their moment of moving up the hierarchy.

If you're always the one getting 98's and 100's, it's kind of like having Bobby Fischer inviting you to a game of chess. At some point, it just looks boastful and arrogant. And there's always context, variables, history of the relationship, and a general vibe to consider. And the hive-mind virus.



If the levers/buttons were set so as a food pellet doesn't always come out as a result of pecking the lever, then the pigeons would peck themselves silly, til their beaks bled, in order to get and over-consume the food pellets.
(+uncertainty into the logic gates as an added imaginary feedback mechanism)
Think of people sitting in front of slot machines at a casino.

If each peck resulted in one food pellet, then the pigeons would only peck when they were hungry and stop pecking once satiated.
(straight logic gates with only physical feedback mechanisms)


Quote:
I guess I was thinking that it was more a hardware thing. I mean, I was exposed to the same downloads and programs as my sister, but she's fully NT.

Knowing that certain autistic traits can be attributed to anomalies in brain structure, what do you think is the nature of the predisposition to the hive virus? Is it that the NT biology is arranged in such a way that the NT is predisposed to assimilate? And if you're referring to this hierarchy-membership as a result of a virus, are you thinking that the viral infection is the more true state of the human, or is freedom from the virus the more true state? Not sure how to word that but I hope it conveys my meaning.


Yes software. You were also exposed but it didn't take to the same degree.
All of the memes were not absorbed and run in your subconscious.
Once in the subconscious unfiltered, they operate out of sight, pulling the levers for your brain's chemical reward feedback systems.
Our brain structures do not allow the efficient downloading, or copying of the memes, unfiltered into the subconscious.
We absorb a relatively few number of memes, and even then, many may be heavily filtered by our conscious thought.

Why exactly our brains operate differently in this way? I don't know.
I do think that the hive software is NOT natural. I think it is an emergent "system intelligence" that can only come to be under certain conditions of population density combined with the dominant types of communication methods.

Our language is actually geared so as to make imaginary/conceptual things seem "real" in our minds, especially the frontal lobes. This, in a society of many, create an environment where the emergence of a hive mind is inevitable.
Our society is actually WAY beyond this stage of emergence.
The hive software has evolved a symbiotic relationship with (hijacked) the brain's chemical reward feedback system.

We are just the rejects that can't assimilate cleanly.



voleregard
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03 Oct 2015, 11:35 pm

Splitting off conversation about Memes of the Hive so as not to derail thread:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=294641



Aristophanes
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03 Oct 2015, 11:53 pm

voleregard wrote:
Splitting off conversation about Memes of the Hive so as not to derail thread:
viewtopic.php?f=8&t=294641

well, that's pretty pompous... :P



voleregard
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04 Oct 2015, 12:15 am

No reason to stop now! :)