Strange made up human things...

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Do you ever feel that most of the rules of socialising are not natural but are actually made up human rules that (most of the time) defy all logic? Or which fit some bizarre line of thinking that is only understood by them!

And yet we are supposed to be able to keep up with these made up rules in an environment where they keep changing or are not clearly communicated.

As to the therapist who said it will come naturally if I relax...Errr I really doubt it love, especially when the rules are not something that has been defined by nature itself. Most have been defined by man and the culture/society he/she lives in! Therefore they are learned and are not naturally hardwired into us.

Just stop changing them all the darn time and expecting people to be psychic in order to keep up. I don't have a crystal ball and I can't read tarot. Neither am I telepathic.

Isn't socialising annoying?

Actually, if you think about it, communication itself is artificial... not sure about biological hardwiring empirically, but why do you think some autistics do not talk at all?

Personally, through entactogens - which at first make one want to communicate even more - I found that it is merely a subjective emotionality that overtakes us and triggers that desire to communicate. It is not there by default, though... in nature there is mostly silence. People can't see it due to how they feel (and so a complete extrovert would never figure out that these rules you mention are artificial at all) - whereas if one was cynical, one could figure out that it is all as such, even these very words!

There IS logic in all social rules and norms, even if we aspies don't see it at first and need to do enormeous amounts of analysis work to discover.

We have to be careful about calling "illogical" those NT behaviors our aspie minds cannot comprehend because we lack the intuition. It makes us look as ignorant and unwilling to learn about NTs as we complain they are about us.

Sometimes, though, their tendencies to live in socially constructed illusions totally might manifest itself in irrational ways, like when some people held a demonstration when Pluto was no longer a planet.

Yes. Also, sometimes I will point out a social rule and ask for explanation, and my friends will concede that it's completely illogical and I will not be able to understand it. It's like they have a third type of logic that we don't have, and it works completely different from the other kinds of logic.

This does allow me to pick and choose the social rules I follow. When deciding whether to use a social rule, I see if the rule actually protects people's feelings, health, etc. If it doesn't serve any purpose and my Neurotypicals (yes, MY Neurotypicals ) explain that there's not really a point to it, I throw it out, even if it makes me look weird.

This is why I don't worry when I go under the table. It helps me feel better, and it's not hurting anyone. Same with getting tickled.

I agree that is not logical what they did but there is logic in why they did it. Social interaction usually has a logical explanation. Like small talk itself isn't logical. Why are people constantly talking about the weather? But the underlying result makes sense when you see it is to form stronger bonds and size up potential friends/enemies/mates.

Yes, socialising is quite annoying and bizzare most of the time, even if there could be nice people that are down to earth. But since the behaviour of most of the people is driven by instincts, i'd rather prefer 'socializing' with domestic animals than with them - animals are less dangerous.

People just adopt the majority's thinking, even most of them have really no logic (like: human purpose on Earth is to make babies and to have a family and be well integrated in society, no matter if the society asks for obedience while you're not ALLOWED to think for yourself)

i would like to know examples of which social rules and such that bumble sees as defying all logic and such. most social etiquette comes from a consensus of a need for order and general manners to avoid offending others.
the unsaid innate instinctual ways in which nt's relate to each other and compete with each other is what confuses me and annoy me. for example, why women look at the clothing of one another and will disapprove of another woman if dressed more elaborately and more tastefully than her. another example is how people talk about others in negative ways when they are not around, yet will act in more pleasant ways in the person's presence.

bumble, which social rules annoy you?

Well said!

True, it also gives us a bad name too.

I also realize that something may seem illogical to someone but to that other person it is very logical.

I don't think most NTs know consciously what many of their social rules and norms are there for. They live at an intuitive level much more than us. So if you ask them the logic of a rule/norm, you can get an answer such as "there's no logic".

However, the basic reason for group rules and norms is protecting the existence of that group by preventing strong dissension that threatens it. Conformism and singling out the different are ways to protect that existence. Politeness rules, as mentioned above, too.

They are different, not stupid. We are different, not stupid. They believe there's strength in numbers, we believe there's strength in realistic thought and analysis. Both things are needed for survival of our species.

Just too bad that there are so few of us we don't receive equal rights.

Strange induction rituals into groups where they take the piss out of the new person just to see how they respond with the reason that they are 'getting to know them'. Um, then why not just talk to them nicely and see what they can find out about the person that way. It's like some kind of informal test that I never signed up for and didn't know I was taking!

Gossip...why is this seen as being cool and more normal than some of my quirks (such as my interests in my hobbies and tendency to become excited when talking about a subject of interest..even if I do ramble on a bit too much). Gossip can ruin lives, my oddities are harmless and hurt no one. Just weird.

I don't socialise with many females..they are too obsessed with trends, fashion and doing what everyone else is doing. Not that I don't like clothes, i do, I just wear what I like whether it is in fashion or not. The same goes activities...i do what I enjoy rather than follow trends but because I do this I am not 'cool; enough to fit in.

The dependence on drugs and alcohol in order to have fun. As I do neither I am considered boring and undesirable by most social groups. Same goes for not being a party animal.

And referring to a gripe I wrote above why is rambling on about your favourite subjects considered to be so bad anyway? I love it when someone natters on about their interests, they seem so excited by them or into them it is lovely to see. Beats hearing someone gossip, b***h and make pointless small talk.

Also what is wrong with digressing during a conversation, I do it a lot...but apparently it confuses others as they cannot keep up with my processing speed.

I understand basic politeness as I come from an older generation mother (who was in her 40s when she had me and was over 60 by the time I was 16) and she raised me to have very good manners.

Ok I am not sure if some of those are social rules as such, some may well be social norms but there are also other quirks (not so socially related) I have that are frowned upon and I do not quite understand why...

Ie I like to sleep with my mattress on the floor in the front room as I am more comfortable there at the moment. I do not see a problem with this as I live alone, sleep better there and it does not disturb anyone and yet people insist I should sleep in the bedroom...why? If I am happier in the front room, why do I HAVE to sleep in the bedroom? I don't like the bedframe I have right now so i won't sleep there.

You have to eat the same thing for dinner as everyone else when living with others...why do i have to do that? Why can't i eat what I like?

I should wear day clothes in the house...why? If im comfy in my comfy pyjamas why do I have to wear day clothes? I wear day clothes only when i go out.

I want to eat the same flavour icecream each week...people think I should change the flavour but I don't want to. What is wrong with eating the flavour I want as long as I enjoy it.

I keep my curtains closed because my eyes are light sensitive during sunny weather. People also think this is some manifestation of a mental illness...err why? I also get migraine headaches sometimes and need most light shut out, including artificial, yet people will insist it must be depression...err why?

I like my favourite coat...I get attached to my favourite coat in the same way I get attached to my hobby collections...what exactly is wrong with this and why is it considered abnormal?

There seem to be these made up rules that I have to be a clone of everyone else to be considered a normal human being who is fit to socialise with. Why?

Why do I have to do things in the same way as everyone else to be socially acceptable when what I am doing hurts no one and is less harmful than some of the activities that the so called 'normals' participate in such as gossiping, bitching, rumor mongering, binge drinking and doing drugs. These people are apparently cool...and yet I am apparently mentally ill or defective for having strange quirks...errr...

It's true and very interesting. Spot on Israeli gal.

This is one thing that is rare to do: for people to self analyse, and analyse others. There simply isn't a disinterest to do this; but a lack of interest by most. I'd expect this to follow the social contract.

I think the general grievance list in this thread is generalising. You'll find at least some of these undesirable traits in the best of people.

I find "socialising" unnatural. What people value varies geographically and the "value" is not 'in- stone'. I find people tenacously clinging to these and there I am in realtime noting this in them wondering why and how a closed mind works - why is it generally desired for the mind to be comfortably closed and settled? I know the answer, but I still find it interesting to look in at it.

There are like 60 million of us. Aspergia for Aspies!

I don't frankly get why people try to push you to drink alcohol when you are at a party or a bar and do not wish to drink it. It's not like it's harming anyone. If anything, it leaves more alcohol for them so that they can get drunker, stupider and more in need of a toilet to pee or puke in.

I also don't get why people dress up to see each other when they have already met before. I get the need to make a favorable first impression, but after that what's the point? If you already know the person and are on good terms then at that point it should be about getting to know the person inside rather than worrying too much about superficial external factors. I mean, so long as you are not dirty and don't smell bad then why bother going beyond that?

Sorry for taking a while to respond.
I have asked myself very similar questions throughout my life, but soon realized that even though I don't understand the ways nt's associate and instinctively compete with each other (back then, I knew I was different, but didn't know why), I had to stop caring. I dress for comfort and not style. I interact with people more out of necessity than to fit in. I'm not concerned with fitting in, and have gotten quite perplexed at times when despite my not trying to compete or become superior in their social groups, people (mostly women) act in ways that they do when wanting to be the dominant person. I simply don't care about such trivialities. I think that frustrates nt's.
If you're looking for support, you've got it from me! If I may offer advice... Be Yourself! Love and Nourish who you are!