What is more acceptable to 'heteronormative people'?

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Do 'heteronormative people' find it more acceptable to be homosexual or trans?
I'm straight and I think homosexuality is more accepted 42%  42%  [ 13 ]
I'm straight and I think trans is more accepted 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I'm straight and I think they are equally accepted/scorned 26%  26%  [ 8 ]
I'm not straight and I think homosexuality is more accepted 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
I'm not straight and I think trans is more accepted 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I'm not straight and I think they are equally accepted/scorned 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
I'm trans and I think homosexuality is more accepted 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I'm trans and I think trans is more accepted 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
I'm trans and I think they are equally accepted/scorned 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 31

puddingmouse
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14 Oct 2012, 12:46 pm

Being homosexual, or being transsexual? I ask this because I have no idea (I'm not straight).

I'm a radical feminist myself, but I don't know how accurate the claim is that other rad fems make. They claim that trans is more acceptable to the general population or 'heteronormative people', hence the whole phenomenon of parents giving hormones to their young children who exhibit gender dysphoria. The argument runs that it's feared that those children who are not gender-conforming will grow up to be homosexual or otherwise queer, and parents fear that more than the idea that their child has a medical condition that can be 'treated' by early transition. They argue that what homophobes really object to about about homosexuality isn't so much the gay sex part of it, but the perceived or actual gender nonconformance. Medicalising this behaviour as 'trans' makes it easier to deal with.

Now, I'm not saying I buy this argument. I'm very sceptical of it because of what the trans people I've known have said. I differ from other radical feminists in that I believe trans is seriously 'for real' and not, in itself, a plot from the patriarchy. Violence and discrimination against trans people is just as shocking as it is againt cis homosexuals. You can also be gay and trans.

However, I made this poll because I honestly don't know how the majority of heterosexuals see this issue. I realise that most people who are going to reply don't have homophobic or transphobic opinions, but what do you think are the thoughts of those who do? What would be harder to deal with if you were a parent: a homosexual child or a trans one? I suspect that you would accept the child in both circumstances, but there has to be a bit of discomfort in adjusting to either situation. I personally would find it more 'comfortable' (sorry about that wording) if my child was homosexual, but I think that's because I am bisexual myself. I don't know if I would see it differently if I was totally hetero.

I also realise that the concept of 'heteronormative people' is horribly vague because everyone is an individual with their own opinion and not every person who is heteronormative sometimes is heteronormative all the time.

You do have societies in this world where homosexuals are put to death, or otherwise persecuted, but they have a cultural place for their own version of 'trans' (even if it's not equivalent to the Western medicalised version). That isn't to say that the people in that 'trans' cultural niche are seen as equals in all cases. So I think, maybe on a global scale, the rad fem argument may have a grain of truth in it, but I don't see trans and gay rights as antagonistic aims as a result.

Also, not specifically related to how 'accepted' it is, I think being trans is harder to deal with 'personally' than being gay. There's a bigger community there for you and there are more role models.


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Last edited by puddingmouse on 14 Oct 2012, 1:21 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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14 Oct 2012, 1:05 pm

I was going to launch a vitriolic total war attack on you beyond the scope of human imagination.

Then I noticed that you actually accept the existence of transsexualism... So I will stand down...

When I see the words "radical feminist" and "transsexual" in the same thread, I usually expect to see evil incarnate... Transgender people are more tolerated by Iran than radical feminism.


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ArrantPariah
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14 Oct 2012, 1:18 pm

GGPViper wrote:
Transgender people are more tolerated by Iran than radical feminism.


Does that mean "Iran tolerates transgender people more than Iran tolerates radical feminism?" Or "Iran tolerates transgender people more than radical feminism tolerates transgender people?"



puddingmouse
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14 Oct 2012, 1:19 pm

GGPViper wrote:
I was going to launch a vitriolic total war attack on you beyond the scope of human imagination.

Then I noticed that you actually accept the existence of transsexualism... So I will stand down...

When I see the words "radical feminist" and "transsexual" in the same thread, I usually expect to see evil incarnate... Transgender people are more tolerated by Iran than radical feminism.


Congratulations on reading the whole thing. :P

How would you answer my question?


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14 Oct 2012, 1:25 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
Transgender people are more tolerated by Iran than radical feminism.


Does that mean "Iran tolerates transgender people more than Iran tolerates radical feminism?" Or "Iran tolerates transgender people more than radical feminism tolerates transgender people?"


Damn. You are *really* good at trolling. I might learn something from you...

The latter: Iran tolerates transgender people more than radical feminism tolerates transgender people.


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14 Oct 2012, 1:28 pm

I'm heterosexual. I have two daughters. I'd find it easier if they were homosexual, rather than transexual. I think it's to do with the relative 'acceptedness' of homosexuality, the possibility of role models, etc, that their life would be easier. And yes, on an existential level, how one relates to one's body, I think being transgender would be emotionally tough.

If one is homophobic, transexualism may be easier to accept, as it feels less likely to be a choice and, as you say, can be medicalised.

GGPViper wrote:
Transgender people are more tolerated by Iran than radical feminism.


I'd guess because there's nothing necessarily political about being transgender, that it can be subsumed into the existing order.



------------------
ETA: I really don't pay much attention to day to day life, but I think there is a sense where homosexuality is moving to an accepted, background thing, that being gay does not necessarily make you a freak show character, it doesn't have to have that tragic arc it once would. I think transgender is a way off that yet.

(Needless to say, of course, homophobia still abounds)



Last edited by Hopper on 14 Oct 2012, 1:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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14 Oct 2012, 1:30 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
I was going to launch a vitriolic total war attack on you beyond the scope of human imagination.

Then I noticed that you actually accept the existence of transsexualism... So I will stand down...

When I see the words "radical feminist" and "transsexual" in the same thread, I usually expect to see evil incarnate... Transgender people are more tolerated by Iran than radical feminism.


Congratulations on reading the whole thing. :P

How would you answer my question?


It is my belief that homosexual individuals are more acceptable to heteronormative people than transgender individuals. I have no evidence to back it up, though.


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XFilesGeek
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14 Oct 2012, 1:32 pm

Interesting question.

Am I correct in thinking you mean Western society?

In any case, I'm not sure if I've ever noticed a social trend in regards to which is more acceptable. When it comes to divergences from the heteronormative fold, individuals have all sorts of funny reactions.

Some people are even deeply offended my my asexuality (which I can't figure out). If I had to guess, I'd say "genderfcuk" is more offensive because people feel it threatens their personal identities. Frankly, I've never understood why so many folks want to allow society to define who they are on the basis of genitalia.


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puddingmouse
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14 Oct 2012, 1:33 pm

Hopper wrote:
I'm heterosexual. I have two daughters. I'd find it easier if they were homosexual, rather than transexual. I think it's to do with the relative 'acceptedness' of homosexuality, the possibility of role models, etc, that their life would be easier. And yes, on an existential level, how one relates to one's body, I think being transgender would be emotionally tough.

If one is homophobic, transexualism may be easier to accept, as it feels less likely to be a choice and, as you say, can be medicalised.

GGPViper wrote:
Transgender people are more tolerated by Iran than radical feminism.


I'd guess because there's nothing necessarily political about being transgender, that it can be subsumed into the existing order.


That's interesting because whilst my dad is very homophobic towards male homosexuals, he told me when I was very young that he wouldn't care if I was a lesbian. I think he would actually prefer it if I had a female partner. He'd be very upset and confused if I wanted to transition, though.

My mother is exactly the opposite way round. She'd rather I transitioned than became an obvious lesbian. Meh.


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puddingmouse
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14 Oct 2012, 1:34 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
Interesting question.

Am I correct in thinking you mean Western society?

In any case, I'm not sure if I've ever noticed a social trend in regards to which is more acceptable. When it comes to divergences from the heteronormative fold, individuals have all sorts of funny reactions.

Some people are even deeply offended my my asexuality (which I can't figure out). If I had to guess, I'd say "genderfcuk" is more offensive because people feel it threatens their personal identities. Frankly, I've never understood why so many folks want to allow society to define who they are on the basis of genitalia.


I didn't have Western society in mind when I made the poll.

People who are 'offended' by anyone's sexuality, or lack of, need to get out more.


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ArrantPariah
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14 Oct 2012, 1:35 pm

Well, Iran does seem fairly tolerant of transsexuals

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuality_in_Iran

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/se ... l-marriage

Iran has more sex-change operations than any country other than Thailand.



puddingmouse
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14 Oct 2012, 1:39 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Well, Iran does seem fairly tolerant of transsexuals

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuality_in_Iran

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/se ... l-marriage

Iran has more sex-change operations than any country other than Thailand.


I'd be a bit tempted to do it if I was Iranian, just for an excuse to act masculine. I'm not trans.

I don't think I would go through with it, though. I like my anatomy too much.


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14 Oct 2012, 1:40 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Well, Iran does seem fairly tolerant of transsexuals

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuality_in_Iran

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/se ... l-marriage

Iran has more sex-change operations than any country other than Thailand.

When I mentioned Iran , I wasn't just shooting from the hip :D.


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14 Oct 2012, 1:53 pm

GGPViper wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Well, Iran does seem fairly tolerant of transsexuals

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuality_in_Iran

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/se ... l-marriage

Iran has more sex-change operations than any country other than Thailand.

When I mentioned Iran , I wasn't just shooting from the hip :D.


You're pretty good at that. I could learn a thing or three from thee.



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14 Oct 2012, 1:57 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
ArrantPariah wrote:
Well, Iran does seem fairly tolerant of transsexuals

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Transsexuality_in_Iran

http://www.guardian.co.uk/world/2009/se ... l-marriage

Iran has more sex-change operations than any country other than Thailand.

When I mentioned Iran , I wasn't just shooting from the hip :D.


You're pretty good at that. I could learn a thing or three from thee.


Trolling is a art. :twisted:


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