What is more acceptable to 'heteronormative people'?

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Do 'heteronormative people' find it more acceptable to be homosexual or trans?
I'm straight and I think homosexuality is more accepted 42%  42%  [ 13 ]
I'm straight and I think trans is more accepted 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I'm straight and I think they are equally accepted/scorned 26%  26%  [ 8 ]
I'm not straight and I think homosexuality is more accepted 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
I'm not straight and I think trans is more accepted 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I'm not straight and I think they are equally accepted/scorned 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
I'm trans and I think homosexuality is more accepted 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I'm trans and I think trans is more accepted 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
I'm trans and I think they are equally accepted/scorned 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 31

puddingmouse
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14 Oct 2012, 4:50 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
I'm sorry. :(


I will never forgive you. :P


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thomas81
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14 Oct 2012, 4:56 pm

I don't completely understand what the question is asking.

Homophobia and Transphobia differs massively depending where in the world you are so theres no definitive answer.

Generally as a rule of thumb, I'd say theres a greater level of acceptance of homosexuality and transexualism than say 20-30 years ago but thats not saying much, depressingly. In some countries gay rights are actually regressing. Some nations in Africa and Eastern Europe are looking to outlaw homosexuality, in some places up until and including the death penalty.

If you're an American gay you can expect things to get worse if Romney wins the election.



naturalplastic
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14 Oct 2012, 5:28 pm

Not sure exactly what "transgender" means. But haveing a sex change operation is a much bigger undertaking than just coming out of the closet as gay.

Work with many gay people. But no sex changed folks as far as I know.

Having a gay kid, though it would be a big deal, it wouldnt be as big a deal as having kid who needed a sex change operation.



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14 Oct 2012, 5:56 pm

I'm straight and I think they are equally accepted/scorned. In my opinion...

... the idea of two or more men (or two or more women) having sex with each other just plain icky.

... the idea that cosmetic surgery can "correct" a person's gender is just plain absurd. A man is still a man, even when he's had his penis cut off, received female hormones, had silicone implants, and dresses in women's clothing -- he's not a woman; he's an emasculated man pretending to be a woman.

I know that there are a lot of people who disagree, and who will flame me for what I've just said, but they are my opinions.


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thomas81
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14 Oct 2012, 6:03 pm

Fnord wrote:

... the idea that cosmetic surgery can "correct" a person's gender is just plain absurd. A man is still a man, even when he's had his penis cut off, received female hormones, had silicone implants, and dresses in women's clothing -- he's not a woman; he's a mutilated man.



How do you define gender though?

Why define gender specifically in the anatomical sense and not the mental?

Nature makes all sorts of mistakes at birth, such as missing limbs, malformed organs, holes in the heart and mental problems. Is it really such a leap in possibility that brains of specific gender can be born into the wrong body?



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14 Oct 2012, 6:11 pm

thomas81 wrote:
How do you define gender though?

At least one Y chromosome = Male
No Y chromosome = Female

thomas81 wrote:
Why define gender specifically in the anatomical sense and not the mental?

Why not? Chromosomes are real, not imaginary. This makes them physical parts of a person's anatomy.

thomas81 wrote:
Nature makes all sorts of mistakes at birth, such as missing limbs, malformed organs, holes in the heart and mental problems. Is it really such a leap in possibility that brains of specific gender can be born into the wrong body?

No such thing. (1) Your brain can not be transplanted into another body and be able to use it; (2) Even after cosmetic surgery, the person still has the same body; and (3) It makes just as much sense to claim that a body was born with the wrong brain, so why not surgically or chemically alter the brain?

Because (in my opinion) there is more money to be made in a lifetime of indulging transsexual delusions than in a few shock-treatments or a one-time lobotomy.


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14 Oct 2012, 6:24 pm

On the basis that people can be born androgynous, agendered, or as hermaphrodites, chromosomes would appear to be a unreliable basis for gender identification.

The reality is mental gender, and arguably biological gender (as the examples above) is a spectrum in much the same way there are different extents of autism. Gender isn't a binary value.

Gender identity disphoria causes severe depression and suicidal tendencies for its sufferers so it seems a little callous to call the corrective procedure a waste of time or money. I guess it only appears that way for cis-folk fortunate enough to have been born with the correct genetalia. If you are serious about lobotomising transgenered people because of their confusion, then you are a hideous fascist and I despise you.



Last edited by thomas81 on 14 Oct 2012, 6:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.

Fnord
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14 Oct 2012, 6:32 pm

thomas81 wrote:
On the basis that people can be born androgynous, or as hermaphrodites, chromosomes would appear to be a unreliable basis for gender identification.

They still have chromosomes, only with mixed or no expression.

thomas81 wrote:
Gender identity disphoria causes severe depression and suicidal tendencies for its sufferers so it seems a little callous to call the corrective procedure a waste of time a money.

A lobotomy is quicker, and only needs to be done once. Thus, it is less of a waste than elective cosmetic surgery.

A series of shock treatments may cost more than a lobotomy, but may cost less than elective cosmetic surgery.

"Dysphoria" is a medically recognized mental and emotional condition in which a person experiences intense feelings of depression, discontent, and in some cases indifference to the world around them. As the term refers only to a condition of mood, dysphoria may be experienced in response to ordinary life events, such as great illness or grief. Dysphoria can also be chemically induced by some commonly used psychoactive drugs, such as typical and atypical antipsychotics.

Since drugs can induce the state, drugs can relieve the state. So can a few electric shocks to the brain.


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thomas81
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14 Oct 2012, 6:35 pm

Fnord wrote:
A lobotomy is quicker, and only needs to be done once. Thus, it is less of a waste than elective cosmetic surgery.

A series of shock treatments may cost more than a lobotomy, but may cost less than elective cosmetic surgery.



Right, and while we're at it, how about we lobotomise and shock the ASD community for their failure to stop stimming and to conform to social protocols.

Really these attitudes belong back in the laboratories of Doctor Mengele.



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14 Oct 2012, 6:47 pm

It may or may not make sense on a biological (as opposed to figurative) level to talk of brains in the wrong body - I wouldn't know. What is obvious is the anxiety and depression of those who feel they are in a wrongly gendered body, and the relief that comes when we do what we can medically to change that.

And indeed, given the existence of hermaphrodites etc, it makes sense to consider transexualism as akin to such cases, rather than a form of dysmorphia (though I would still argue for surgery whatever the case).

To suggest shock therapy or a lobotomy is grotesque. From your tone I would assume you prefer such things as there is something of the punitive, slap-round-the-face, stop-being-silly to them.



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14 Oct 2012, 6:51 pm

I really take issue when the morally absolute chime in on these debates.

They are on this crusade to save the rest of us from whatever they personally find "icky" and to plug electrodes to what other corrupting influence of the day is out to 'get us'.

If you don't like something then back off and live and let live but talking about lobotomising or shock treatments only makes you sound like a detestable bigot.

I wouldnt even condone lobotomising or electrocuting paedophiles who actually are a social threat.



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14 Oct 2012, 7:08 pm

Damn right. They need to be 'cured', not 'indulged'. Good grief. I mean, f**k off, yeah?

It's pissy and mean, which some people seem to think is somehow more 'real'. 'Men without chests', as CS Lewis had it.

Stuff like this is different to plain not understanding. I detect a certain pleasure in being so cruel, not a (however clumsy) attempt at being (ugh) 'rational'.



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14 Oct 2012, 9:50 pm

Fnord wrote:
This makes them physical parts of a person's anatomy.


The idea the a Y-chromosome = "male" is subjective and culturally determined.

The fact that the Y-chromosome exists is objective. That a person with a Y-chromosome is "male" is an arbitrary classification that has nothing to do with "objectivity."

The brain is also part of a person's "anatomy." Certain studies have indicated that transgendered people do, in actuality, have the "wrong" brain for their body. And, no, you don't get to ignore the science you don't like because it conflicts with your emotions.

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Because (in my opinion) there is more money to be made in a lifetime of indulging transsexual delusions than in a few shock-treatments or a one-time lobotomy.


Where's the evidence that shock treatments or a lobotomy will "cure" transgenderism?


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15 Oct 2012, 1:52 am

puddingmouse wrote:
Being homosexual, or being transsexual? I ask this because I have no idea (I'm not straight).

However, I made this poll because I honestly don't know how the majority of heterosexuals see this issue. I realise that most people who are going to reply don't have homophobic or transphobic opinions, but what do you think are the thoughts of those who do? What would be harder to deal with if you were a parent: a homosexual child or a trans one? I suspect that you would accept the child in both circumstances, but there has to be a bit of discomfort in adjusting to either situation. I personally would find it more 'comfortable' (sorry about that wording) if my child was homosexual, but I think that's because I am bisexual myself. I don't know if I would see it differently if I was totally hetero.

Also, not specifically related to how 'accepted' it is, I think being trans is harder to deal with 'personally' than being gay. There's a bigger community there for you and there are more role models.




I think it would be harder for me if my child were a transsexual then if they were a homosexual. I would have no problem with them being a homosexual, but the transsexual I don't think would be so acceptable to my family and friends (who are religious) because of the gender noncomformance(You were born a boy, you have a penis, end of issue is the line they may follow), and that would be an issue, but both present a slight challenge, not anything more then a straight child, its just that they are different set of challenges to navigate, and I suppose it depends on which sex we are talking about.... I would be far more comfortable with a son who became a women then I would be with a daughter who became a man, but its all theoretical, your child is your child and you'd love them either way. I would not be so happy if I knew them as rigid heterosexuals and they surprise me in their 30's with a sex change. I would be greatly hurt and view it like the death of family member.

I think Trans is far more acceptable to most cultures and peoples because it doesn't disturb the male-female union as the societal ideal. The man who kisses another man, or the man who wears lady clothes and makes no attempts to fit either the gender construct for man or woman is more disturbing. I think in ancient times homosexuality was more acceptable then transsexuality but that is also largely a function of the fact that we have cosmetic surgery and they did not.


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15 Oct 2012, 4:52 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
Some people are even deeply offended my my asexuality (which I can't figure out).


I think asexuality is seen as not playing the game. Anything that isn't heterosexuality, any 'perversion', whilst not playing by the hetero rules can at least still be understood - by their being, they still recognise sexuality. Far more upsetting is the person who can't be subsumed into that whole.



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15 Oct 2012, 5:33 am

puddingmouse wrote:
I'm a radical feminist myself, but I don't know how accurate the claim is that other rad fems make. They claim that trans is more acceptable to the general population or 'heteronormative people', hence the whole phenomenon of parents giving hormones to their young children who exhibit gender dysphoria. The argument runs that it's feared that those children who are not gender-conforming will grow up to be homosexual or otherwise queer, and parents fear that more than the idea that their child has a medical condition that can be 'treated' by early transition. They argue that what homophobes really object to about about homosexuality isn't so much the gay sex part of it, but the perceived or actual gender nonconformance. Medicalising this behaviour as 'trans' makes it easier to deal with.

You do have societies in this world where homosexuals are put to death, or otherwise persecuted, but they have a cultural place for their own version of 'trans' (even if it's not equivalent to the Western medicalised version). That isn't to say that the people in that 'trans' cultural niche are seen as equals in all cases. So I think, maybe on a global scale, the rad fem argument may have a grain of truth in it, but I don't see trans and gay rights as antagonistic aims as a result.

Also, not specifically related to how 'accepted' it is, I think being trans is harder to deal with 'personally' than being gay. There's a bigger community there for you and there are more role models.


I'm not even sure if I am "'heteronormative" or not since I have never really explored it thoroughly although I probably should, but I have no issues with queers of any kind. I had a conversation recently along these lines from someone who is as I call it "culturally homophobic" - basically someone who doesn't actually hate, dislike or even fear them but simply has assumed it from others and repeated it until they think they believe it - but now living here has loosened up quite a bit on the issue since it's more acceptable here.

But one of my cultures is incredibly homophobic, and from experience and also through talking to others from there and some who's countries are not as bad as that, but where homophobia is very entrenched in the social and cultural constructs there. I know that some have been beat up, attacked, raped or killed for it there, so regardless if they are then they try their hardest to keep it a secret for safety reasons.

I know in that transexual is seen as preferencial to homosexual there and in other places close by similar to it - this seems to be agreed upon even by those who are homophobic - if they have to choose between the two, then that is how they choose. Not to say that being trans will mean you are truly accepted, the stimga would be huge - but it is definitely still preferable than being homosexual.

The part about "perceived or actual gender nonconformance" really struck a cord with me. I do think that is the reason. It's also the reason that when I am back home I have to keep some of my interests quiet in order to make my life markedly easier. I believe it matters to them more about the gender nonconformance than anything else - those that do not conform are immediately suspect.


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