What is more acceptable to 'heteronormative people'?

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Do 'heteronormative people' find it more acceptable to be homosexual or trans?
I'm straight and I think homosexuality is more accepted 42%  42%  [ 13 ]
I'm straight and I think trans is more accepted 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I'm straight and I think they are equally accepted/scorned 26%  26%  [ 8 ]
I'm not straight and I think homosexuality is more accepted 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
I'm not straight and I think trans is more accepted 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I'm not straight and I think they are equally accepted/scorned 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
I'm trans and I think homosexuality is more accepted 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I'm trans and I think trans is more accepted 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
I'm trans and I think they are equally accepted/scorned 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 31

Hopper
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15 Oct 2012, 4:52 am

XFilesGeek wrote:
Some people are even deeply offended my my asexuality (which I can't figure out).


I think asexuality is seen as not playing the game. Anything that isn't heterosexuality, any 'perversion', whilst not playing by the hetero rules can at least still be understood - by their being, they still recognise sexuality. Far more upsetting is the person who can't be subsumed into that whole.



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15 Oct 2012, 5:33 am

puddingmouse wrote:
I'm a radical feminist myself, but I don't know how accurate the claim is that other rad fems make. They claim that trans is more acceptable to the general population or 'heteronormative people', hence the whole phenomenon of parents giving hormones to their young children who exhibit gender dysphoria. The argument runs that it's feared that those children who are not gender-conforming will grow up to be homosexual or otherwise queer, and parents fear that more than the idea that their child has a medical condition that can be 'treated' by early transition. They argue that what homophobes really object to about about homosexuality isn't so much the gay sex part of it, but the perceived or actual gender nonconformance. Medicalising this behaviour as 'trans' makes it easier to deal with.

You do have societies in this world where homosexuals are put to death, or otherwise persecuted, but they have a cultural place for their own version of 'trans' (even if it's not equivalent to the Western medicalised version). That isn't to say that the people in that 'trans' cultural niche are seen as equals in all cases. So I think, maybe on a global scale, the rad fem argument may have a grain of truth in it, but I don't see trans and gay rights as antagonistic aims as a result.

Also, not specifically related to how 'accepted' it is, I think being trans is harder to deal with 'personally' than being gay. There's a bigger community there for you and there are more role models.


I'm not even sure if I am "'heteronormative" or not since I have never really explored it thoroughly although I probably should, but I have no issues with queers of any kind. I had a conversation recently along these lines from someone who is as I call it "culturally homophobic" - basically someone who doesn't actually hate, dislike or even fear them but simply has assumed it from others and repeated it until they think they believe it - but now living here has loosened up quite a bit on the issue since it's more acceptable here.

But one of my cultures is incredibly homophobic, and from experience and also through talking to others from there and some who's countries are not as bad as that, but where homophobia is very entrenched in the social and cultural constructs there. I know that some have been beat up, attacked, raped or killed for it there, so regardless if they are then they try their hardest to keep it a secret for safety reasons.

I know in that transexual is seen as preferencial to homosexual there and in other places close by similar to it - this seems to be agreed upon even by those who are homophobic - if they have to choose between the two, then that is how they choose. Not to say that being trans will mean you are truly accepted, the stimga would be huge - but it is definitely still preferable than being homosexual.

The part about "perceived or actual gender nonconformance" really struck a cord with me. I do think that is the reason. It's also the reason that when I am back home I have to keep some of my interests quiet in order to make my life markedly easier. I believe it matters to them more about the gender nonconformance than anything else - those that do not conform are immediately suspect.


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15 Oct 2012, 7:10 am

I'd say it's a mixed bag. Transsexualism isn't something a lot of people really understand and it's naturally is something that tries to stay hidden from public view. Homosexuality probably was more like that 30-40 years but now it's moved into the mainstream. It's no longer a completely foreign concept in people's mind, they pretty much understand what it is. I'm not sure this will change with trans since I would imagine a transgendered person would more likely identify with the gender they identify with as opposed to being transgender, maybe I'm completely off base with that.

My point is since there is little visibility or understanding of transsexualism in comparison to homosexuality, it's hard to predict what people's reactions to it or build any idea of general consensus. As to homophobic people, I would imagine some could see it as more 'acceptable' relative to homosexuality, some that don't differentiate it at all from homosexuality, and some that thinks its even worse. I imagine some people who are more tolerant of homosexuality thinking transsexualism as weird and foreign too. If I were gay, I probably predict what the reactions would be from certain people in my life but if I was transgendered, I really have no idea what the reaction would be in comparison.



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15 Oct 2012, 12:12 pm

Hopper wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Some people are even deeply offended my my asexuality (which I can't figure out).


I think asexuality is seen as not playing the game. Anything that isn't heterosexuality, any 'perversion', whilst not playing by the hetero rules can at least still be understood - by their being, they still recognise sexuality. Far more upsetting is the person who can't be subsumed into that whole.


Ah.

Makes sense in that light.

Thanks.


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16 Oct 2012, 11:11 am

Kjas wrote:
I'm not even sure if I am "'heteronormative" or not since I have never really explored it thoroughly although I probably should, but I have no issues with queers of any kind. I had a conversation recently along these lines from someone who is as I call it "culturally homophobic" - basically someone who doesn't actually hate, dislike or even fear them but simply has assumed it from others and repeated it until they think they believe it - but now living here has loosened up quite a bit on the issue since it's more acceptable here.

But one of my cultures is incredibly homophobic, and from experience and also through talking to others from there and some who's countries are not as bad as that, but where homophobia is very entrenched in the social and cultural constructs there. I know that some have been beat up, attacked, raped or killed for it there, so regardless if they are then they try their hardest to keep it a secret for safety reasons.

I know in that transexual is seen as preferencial to homosexual there and in other places close by similar to it - this seems to be agreed upon even by those who are homophobic - if they have to choose between the two, then that is how they choose. Not to say that being trans will mean you are truly accepted, the stimga would be huge - but it is definitely still preferable than being homosexual.

The part about "perceived or actual gender nonconformance" really struck a cord with me. I do think that is the reason. It's also the reason that when I am back home I have to keep some of my interests quiet in order to make my life markedly easier. I believe it matters to them more about the gender nonconformance than anything else - those that do not conform are immediately suspect.


When you talk about one of your cultures being homophobic, do you mean Latin America? If so, I blame the conquistadors/Catholic church. Native Amerindians were not homophobic.

I think the general consensus amongst conservative Abrahamic religions is: trans = bad, but homosexuality = very bad/evil.


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16 Oct 2012, 1:14 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
Kjas wrote:
I'm not even sure if I am "'heteronormative" or not since I have never really explored it thoroughly although I probably should, but I have no issues with queers of any kind. I had a conversation recently along these lines from someone who is as I call it "culturally homophobic" - basically someone who doesn't actually hate, dislike or even fear them but simply has assumed it from others and repeated it until they think they believe it - but now living here has loosened up quite a bit on the issue since it's more acceptable here.

But one of my cultures is incredibly homophobic, and from experience and also through talking to others from there and some who's countries are not as bad as that, but where homophobia is very entrenched in the social and cultural constructs there. I know that some have been beat up, attacked, raped or killed for it there, so regardless if they are then they try their hardest to keep it a secret for safety reasons.

I know in that transexual is seen as preferencial to homosexual there and in other places close by similar to it - this seems to be agreed upon even by those who are homophobic - if they have to choose between the two, then that is how they choose. Not to say that being trans will mean you are truly accepted, the stimga would be huge - but it is definitely still preferable than being homosexual.

The part about "perceived or actual gender nonconformance" really struck a cord with me. I do think that is the reason. It's also the reason that when I am back home I have to keep some of my interests quiet in order to make my life markedly easier. I believe it matters to them more about the gender nonconformance than anything else - those that do not conform are immediately suspect.


When you talk about one of your cultures being homophobic, do you mean Latin America? If so, I blame the conquistadors/Catholic church. Native Amerindians were not homophobic.

I think the general consensus amongst conservative Abrahamic religions is: trans = bad, but homosexuality = very bad/evil.


Well- your poll says otherwise. Trans is more bizarre than homosexuality according to all but one respondant. So thats your answer.

Next question.



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16 Oct 2012, 1:56 pm

Hopper wrote:
XFilesGeek wrote:
Some people are even deeply offended my my asexuality (which I can't figure out).


I think asexuality is seen as not playing the game. Anything that isn't heterosexuality, any 'perversion', whilst not playing by the hetero rules can at least still be understood - by their being, they still recognise sexuality. Far more upsetting is the person who can't be subsumed into that whole.


I agree- people like to make bald declarations about "human nature"-
it happened (is happening) with sexuals who aren't hetero,
and it's happening with asexuals.

My human sexuality coursebook opened with "Sexual feeling is a fundamental part of human nature..."

it was perfectly matter of fact when discussing gay people, transsexuality, etc, but non-sexual people weren't discussed in any terms other than pathologies, in the entire text.


I haven't encountered someone "deeply offended" by it,
but there are a lot of disgusting things said about me because of it-
implications that it must be resultant of abuse or rape or something (sounds familiar),
that I must be sick ("get your hormones checked"),
and that repulsed asexuals are evil for "withholding" or "denying" sex from partners who choose to be with them- that's a result of rape culture, I think.


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16 Oct 2012, 4:57 pm

naturalplastic wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Kjas wrote:
I'm not even sure if I am "'heteronormative" or not since I have never really explored it thoroughly although I probably should, but I have no issues with queers of any kind. I had a conversation recently along these lines from someone who is as I call it "culturally homophobic" - basically someone who doesn't actually hate, dislike or even fear them but simply has assumed it from others and repeated it until they think they believe it - but now living here has loosened up quite a bit on the issue since it's more acceptable here.

But one of my cultures is incredibly homophobic, and from experience and also through talking to others from there and some who's countries are not as bad as that, but where homophobia is very entrenched in the social and cultural constructs there. I know that some have been beat up, attacked, raped or killed for it there, so regardless if they are then they try their hardest to keep it a secret for safety reasons.

I know in that transexual is seen as preferencial to homosexual there and in other places close by similar to it - this seems to be agreed upon even by those who are homophobic - if they have to choose between the two, then that is how they choose. Not to say that being trans will mean you are truly accepted, the stimga would be huge - but it is definitely still preferable than being homosexual.

The part about "perceived or actual gender nonconformance" really struck a cord with me. I do think that is the reason. It's also the reason that when I am back home I have to keep some of my interests quiet in order to make my life markedly easier. I believe it matters to them more about the gender nonconformance than anything else - those that do not conform are immediately suspect.


When you talk about one of your cultures being homophobic, do you mean Latin America? If so, I blame the conquistadors/Catholic church. Native Amerindians were not homophobic.

I think the general consensus amongst conservative Abrahamic religions is: trans = bad, but homosexuality = very bad/evil.


Well- your poll says otherwise. Trans is more bizarre than homosexuality according to all but one respondant. So thats your answer.

Next question.


What is the point of being rude?

I said Abrahamic religions, not heterosexuals in general, and also I meant (but didn't say, sorry) in a global context - countries like Iran, where we have established that this is the case? I think the majority of respondents to this poll aren't following a backwards version of an Abrahamic religion.


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16 Oct 2012, 5:29 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Kjas wrote:
I'm not even sure if I am "'heteronormative" or not since I have never really explored it thoroughly although I probably should, but I have no issues with queers of any kind. I had a conversation recently along these lines from someone who is as I call it "culturally homophobic" - basically someone who doesn't actually hate, dislike or even fear them but simply has assumed it from others and repeated it until they think they believe it - but now living here has loosened up quite a bit on the issue since it's more acceptable here.

But one of my cultures is incredibly homophobic, and from experience and also through talking to others from there and some who's countries are not as bad as that, but where homophobia is very entrenched in the social and cultural constructs there. I know that some have been beat up, attacked, raped or killed for it there, so regardless if they are then they try their hardest to keep it a secret for safety reasons.

I know in that transexual is seen as preferencial to homosexual there and in other places close by similar to it - this seems to be agreed upon even by those who are homophobic - if they have to choose between the two, then that is how they choose. Not to say that being trans will mean you are truly accepted, the stimga would be huge - but it is definitely still preferable than being homosexual.

The part about "perceived or actual gender nonconformance" really struck a cord with me. I do think that is the reason. It's also the reason that when I am back home I have to keep some of my interests quiet in order to make my life markedly easier. I believe it matters to them more about the gender nonconformance than anything else - those that do not conform are immediately suspect.


When you talk about one of your cultures being homophobic, do you mean Latin America? If so, I blame the conquistadors/Catholic church. Native Amerindians were not homophobic.

I think the general consensus amongst conservative Abrahamic religions is: trans = bad, but homosexuality = very bad/evil.


Well- your poll says otherwise. Trans is more bizarre than homosexuality according to all but one respondant. So thats your answer.

Next question.


What is the point of being rude?

I said Abrahamic religions, not heterosexuals in general, and also I meant (but didn't say, sorry) in a global context - countries like Iran, where we have established that this is the case? I think the majority of respondents to this poll aren't following a backwards version of an Abrahamic religion.


Sorry.


Okay

if the question is about religous attitudes then.. well we all touched on this very thing in another thread just recently.

In biblical times they didnt have 'sex change operations'- couldnt even imagine such things.

But Christ did said that "the kingdom of God is available to eunuchs."

And that it didnt matter how you got to be a eunuch-if you did it to yourself- or someone else did it to you- whether you did for religous reasons ( apparently some folks took the vow of celibacy to the extreme back then) - or to get in good with the emperor to get a cushy job- or whatever- or if it was an accident. Didnt matter.


But the kingdom is NOT available to "fornicators, and sodomizers, etc etc".

So if you indulged in homosexual behavior -then youre sining.

But having a body that was mutiliated genital-wise is not per se a sin.

So- you may be right-that in Abrahamic religions homosexuality is more scorned than what we might call transgenderism is.

So -you may have a point.



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16 Oct 2012, 5:32 pm

^

It's okay.

Yeah, the poll is only going to reveal the views of people from fairly secular societies, but I was hoping that someone would come on and give a different cultural take on things, which is why I was replying to Kjas.


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16 Oct 2012, 7:01 pm

I took the poll before reading the thread, and thought "trans" meant transvestite.
I still would have voted the same way, though. I said gay is more accepted.
I think it's because most gay people still look generally the way society expects a man or woman to look. First impressions are based on looks, so transexuals come across as very outside the norm right off the bat.



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16 Oct 2012, 7:14 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
When you talk about one of your cultures being homophobic, do you mean Latin America? If so, I blame the conquistadors/Catholic church. Native Amerindians were not homophobic.

I think the general consensus amongst conservative Abrahamic religions is: trans = bad, but homosexuality = very bad/evil.


I think that in anglo socities, gay seems to be more accepted than trans - at least that seems to be the case in Australia and America.

Yes, Latin America - Cuba to be exact, but it's common throughout all of Latin America with perhaps a little bit of an exception or at least not as bad in Brazil, where they are slightly more accepting of it.

You're correct, Amerindians are not homophobic, it's certainly a learned practice, one that likely was imported from Spain along with the western gender steroypes and religion.

But for gender nonconformance of any kind, you pay a very high price for it in Latin America and gender sterotypes are much stricter there.
In Chile, if a girl goes to university, it used to be assumed it was because she was too ugly or defective in some way to get a husband - and that attitude is changing but it is still very much there underlying the assumptions people make about women who go to university there (thankfully that attitude doesn't exist throughout all the continent). Women are still expected to do everything in the household on the daily basis whether they have a full time, part time work or not - and for those who are not capable of that for any reason there is a high social price paid. A woman with something considered "male" interests or more than one of them (such as mechanics) will have to keep it quiet unless she wants to run the risk of being labelled a lesiban (and the resulting personal safety issues that would arise from that). Men face similar things, only in different areas - typically work, income, hobbies and role in the household. Gender nonconformance of any kind is socially unacceptable there and hence probably the preference for trans over gay.


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Last edited by Kjas on 16 Oct 2012, 7:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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16 Oct 2012, 7:38 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
I differ from other radical feminists in that I believe trans is seriously 'for real' and not, in itself, a plot from the patriarchy.

People actually think that? 8O

Quote:
I also realise that the concept of 'heteronormative people' is horribly vague because everyone is an individual with their own opinion and not every person who is heteronormative sometimes is heteronormative all the time.

My general reaction on seeing the word 'heteronormative' is to prepare to argue with people who will try to use this word (and possibly others) to label people they dislike as bad, rather than to convey information. It seems to me that this word (and some other politicized words) are kept intentionally vague, so as to make better verbal weapons.

Nobody seems interested in clubbing anyone else over the head with the word 'heteronormativity' in this thread, though, which is nice.

Quote:
the rad fem argument may have a grain of truth in it, but I don't see trans and gay rights as antagonistic aims as a result.

Where would the antagonism be?

Quote:
I think the general consensus amongst conservative Abrahamic religions is: trans = bad, but homosexuality = very bad/evil.

From the point of view of Christianity, it is possible to directly support a view that homosexuality (or more precisely, homosexual acts) is bad, but it isn't possible to directly support a view that transsexualism is bad. Concluding that homosexuality is bad also depends on a particular interpretation.

A little over a decade ago, I had a Muslim friend who I discussed homosexuality with. At the time, we both agreed that it was not right, but that it certainly wasn't terribly evil, and that any sort of nastiness directed at gay people was wrong. If I had to put it into an equational form, I'd say my opinion then was trans = no opinion/never heard of it, homosexuality = mildly bad; and my opinion now would be trans = ok, homosexuality = ok. I don't know whether you'd categorize me as conservative now, but I certainly was then.

In general, I think it's likely that there is often some degree of greater acceptance of transsexuality than homosexuality in conservative Abrahamic religions, but I can't agree with the statement you made as written. My guess would be that there isn't a very strong universal tendency for one to be more acceptable than the other.


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16 Oct 2012, 9:01 pm

I feel that the only reason homosexuality might be more accepted is because the authors of the three main religious texts didn't have a concept for "trans". What is clear is that they did (and do) have very strict rules about gender segregation and gender roles, hierarchical ones, and I think even the taboo against homosexuality has to do with people not acting in conformance with those roles. I think it's as someone has already said- if homosexuality is more accepted, it's only because most people know what it is, and have for decades, quite honestly.


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03 Nov 2012, 10:58 am

Fnord wrote:
I'm straight and I think they are equally accepted/scorned. In my opinion...

... the idea of two or more men (or two or more women) having sex with each other just plain icky.

... the idea that cosmetic surgery can "correct" a person's gender is just plain absurd. A man is still a man, even when he's had his penis cut off, received female hormones, had silicone implants, and dresses in women's clothing -- he's not a woman; he's an emasculated man pretending to be a woman.

I know that there are a lot of people who disagree, and who will flame me for what I've just said, but they are my opinions.


I completely and wholeheartedly agree with this post. I couldn't have said it better myself. I dissagree with the lobotomy and similar comments from this user though, and think they are downright stupid.


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