What is more acceptable to 'heteronormative people'?

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Do 'heteronormative people' find it more acceptable to be homosexual or trans?
I'm straight and I think homosexuality is more accepted 42%  42%  [ 13 ]
I'm straight and I think trans is more accepted 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I'm straight and I think they are equally accepted/scorned 26%  26%  [ 8 ]
I'm not straight and I think homosexuality is more accepted 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
I'm not straight and I think trans is more accepted 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I'm not straight and I think they are equally accepted/scorned 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
I'm trans and I think homosexuality is more accepted 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I'm trans and I think trans is more accepted 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
I'm trans and I think they are equally accepted/scorned 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 31

GGPViper
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03 Nov 2012, 12:30 pm

TrainofLove wrote:
Fnord wrote:
I'm straight and I think they are equally accepted/scorned. In my opinion...

... the idea of two or more men (or two or more women) having sex with each other just plain icky.

... the idea that cosmetic surgery can "correct" a person's gender is just plain absurd. A man is still a man, even when he's had his penis cut off, received female hormones, had silicone implants, and dresses in women's clothing -- he's not a woman; he's an emasculated man pretending to be a woman.

I know that there are a lot of people who disagree, and who will flame me for what I've just said, but they are my opinions.


I completely and wholeheartedly agree with this post. I couldn't have said it better myself. I disagree with the lobotomy and similar comments from this user though, and think they are downright stupid.


A fairly recent study suggests that there are fundamental differences in brain structure between transsexual individuals and heterosexual individuals.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2 ... -scan.html

So the "a man is still a man" argument isn't really valid, if the person didn't have the brain of a man in the first place.


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03 Nov 2012, 1:10 pm

I think homosexuals are more accepted today. I think homosexuality is more common, so people are more familiar with it. Also, there is greater advocacy for homosexuality than there is for transsexuals.

I myself feel slightly uneasy around transvestites (though not necessarily transsexuals). I like to think of myself as an open minded person and I have campaigned against racism and homophobia, but I still feel irrationally uneasy when I realise someone is dressing as the wrong sex (though I support the rights of transsexuals and I am against discrimination on those grounds), which is quite embarrassing. I imagine in 50 years time my grandchildren will look back on my irrational unease in the same way I look upon the homophobia of my grandparents.



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03 Nov 2012, 3:39 pm

GGPViper wrote:
TrainofLove wrote:
Fnord wrote:
I'm straight and I think they are equally accepted/scorned. In my opinion...

... the idea of two or more men (or two or more women) having sex with each other just plain icky.

... the idea that cosmetic surgery can "correct" a person's gender is just plain absurd. A man is still a man, even when he's had his penis cut off, received female hormones, had silicone implants, and dresses in women's clothing -- he's not a woman; he's an emasculated man pretending to be a woman.

I know that there are a lot of people who disagree, and who will flame me for what I've just said, but they are my opinions.


I completely and wholeheartedly agree with this post. I couldn't have said it better myself. I disagree with the lobotomy and similar comments from this user though, and think they are downright stupid.


A fairly recent study suggests that there are fundamental differences in brain structure between transsexual individuals and heterosexual individuals.
http://www.newscientist.com/article/dn2 ... -scan.html

So the "a man is still a man" argument isn't really valid, if the person didn't have the brain of a man in the first place.


Exactly, and its far more common then people think.


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03 Nov 2012, 4:01 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:

and that repulsed asexuals are evil for "withholding" or "denying" sex from partners who choose to be with them- that's a result of rape culture, I think.



The reason that it may be selfish is because, if this is a monogamous long-term relationship that two people are committed to make it work, then besides masturbation, you are his sole outlet for him to express himself sexually. If the understanding entering something like, say, marriage, was that: "you know, we totally get each other, we get along very well, we have great mental stimulation and emotional chemistry but we both acknowledge that one or both of us are will be more so sexually unavailable, and we're fine with that" then no harm, no foul. At least you both entered in understanding that, so its not selfish.

You have to marry with your mind, your heart, and your genitals. The last one most people are uncomfortable bringing up, and understandably so, but the sexual chemistry between two people is almost as important as the first two. Being honest at the onset helps, so does asking each other what sex means to them and how it makes them feel. And it goes both ways by the way, I feel bad for women who are stuck with a sexually unavailable man, and vice versa, especially if the sexual unavilability was misunderstood and not expected, and they've invested all this time and love only to be locked out of that.


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03 Nov 2012, 4:03 pm

ValentineWiggin wrote:
I feel that the only reason homosexuality might be more accepted is because the authors of the three main religious texts didn't have a concept for "trans". What is clear is that they did (and do) have very strict rules about gender segregation and gender roles, hierarchical ones, and I think even the taboo against homosexuality has to do with people not acting in conformance with those roles. I think it's as someone has already said- if homosexuality is more accepted, it's only because most people know what it is, and have for decades, quite honestly.


Bingo.

God made order and separation, and almost every policy following the second day of creation is reconfirmed in Jewish ritual. The text when not read into has nothing against the trans so long as it conforms to a specific gender identity. (That doesn't mean that people won't have something against trans.)

It was written specifically this way under the assumption that gender is not that confining... only to be reconfirmed by within Jewish society and every culture it came into contact with. It assumes that we are born a certain way, gay or straight or bi or transexual or whatever, but the way that people behave around us is just much an influence on our sexual identity, and that our sexuality is far more fluid then we think. 100% nature, and 100% nurture makes up the human being.


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03 Nov 2012, 11:57 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
I still feel irrationally uneasy when I realise someone is dressing as the wrong sex (though I support the rights of transsexuals and I am against discrimination on those grounds), which is quite embarrassing.

What's embarrassing about it? How could anyone blame you for having an irrational thought pass through your mind? Everyone has irrational thoughts and impulses pass through their mind.

You aren't responsible for thoughts that you can't control. You are responsible for your actions, which you can control.


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04 Nov 2012, 7:46 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:

and that repulsed asexuals are evil for "withholding" or "denying" sex from partners who choose to be with them- that's a result of rape culture, I think.



The reason that it may be selfish is because, if this is a monogamous long-term relationship that two people are committed to make it work, then besides masturbation, you are his sole outlet for him to express himself sexually. If the understanding entering something like, say, marriage, was that: "you know, we totally get each other, we get along very well, we have great mental stimulation and emotional chemistry but we both acknowledge that one or both of us are will be more so sexually unavailable, and we're fine with that" then no harm, no foul. At least you both entered in understanding that, so its not selfish.

You have to marry with your mind, your heart, and your genitals. The last one most people are uncomfortable bringing up, and understandably so, but the sexual chemistry between two people is almost as important as the first two. Being honest at the onset helps, so does asking each other what sex means to them and how it makes them feel. And it goes both ways by the way, I feel bad for women who are stuck with a sexually unavailable man, and vice versa, especially if the sexual unavilability was misunderstood and not expected, and they've invested all this time and love only to be locked out of that.


If an asexual person enters into a relationship without making their preferences known upfront, I agree that it is selfish. I've never agreed with other asexuals who were upset when they spring their lack of desire for sex on their sexual partner, and subsequently become upset when said partner dumps them.

Personally, I don't have the ability to cater to someone else's "physical needs," nor am I able to satisfy their emotional needs. It would be grossly irresponsible of me to enter into ANY romantic relationship.


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04 Nov 2012, 8:02 am

People get mad when their partner won't put out. I think it's pretty awful when a person expects their partner to pretty much let them masturbate using their body, having to go through sex that they don't want and can't enjoy and possible even have pain from.

I've seen plenty of women on the hysterectomy forum I'm on with husbands getting all pissy about not getting any when their wife has good excuses of not being healed enough yet or having pain and aren't refusing just because they don't feel like it (which is a legitimate excuse too).

I'll likely never get in a relationship with a man again for various reasons but one big one is that I will never do penetration again. I am now even tampon free and am going to have a fit if I'm expected to use dilators after my radiation. I don't even want to do pelvic exams but I suppose I'll have to. :(



04 Nov 2012, 8:58 am

Hopper wrote:
If one is homophobic, transexualism may be easier to accept, as it feels less likely to be a choice and, as you say, can be medicalised.




That's an incredibly dumb thing to say. Homophobes hate transsexuals as much as they hate gays. They would argue that "trannies" are just gays in disguise.



@Puddingmouse: WTF do you mean by "heteronormative" people? You do realize that many, many radical feminists, particularly of the separatist variety, are vehemently transphobic? I could show you blog after blog bashing trans women. These retardettes think that there's a 'patriarchal conspiracy' to "infiltrate" their movement by means of MTF transsexuals..... :roll:



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04 Nov 2012, 12:05 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
I think homosexuals are more accepted today. I think homosexuality is more common, so people are more familiar with it. Also, there is greater advocacy for homosexuality than there is for transsexuals. .


Homosexuality isn't more 'common'. Its just that more homosexuals are out as a result of better advocacy, rights advancement and greater tolerance within wider society.

In days of yore homosexuals had to remain hidden to avoid social castigation and imprisonment.



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04 Nov 2012, 12:35 pm

Or worse,burning.I read that the term"fa***t" came from the fact that so many homosexuals were burned,so the term fa***t,which once meant a peice of wood became synonymous with being homosexual.



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04 Nov 2012, 3:00 pm

AspieRogue wrote:
Hopper wrote:
If one is homophobic, transexualism may be easier to accept, as it feels less likely to be a choice and, as you say, can be medicalised.




That's an incredibly dumb thing to say. Homophobes hate transsexuals as much as they hate gays. They would argue that "trannies" are just gays in disguise.



@Puddingmouse: WTF do you mean by "heteronormative" people? You do realize that many, many radical feminists, particularly of the separatist variety, are vehemently transphobic? I could show you blog after blog bashing trans women. These retardettes think that there's a 'patriarchal conspiracy' to "infiltrate" their movement by means of MTF transsexuals..... :roll:


By heteronormative, I mean people who are icked out by homosexuality, even despite their better selves.

Yeah, I know rad fems hate transsexuals. They are right to be concerned about the marginalisation of the lesbian identity, but I don't think transsexuals are the source of this. I don't agree with them on this issue.

There is a problem that MtFs often go to extremes to embody the feminine stereotypes that radical feminists fight against. They attribute this to the wrong source, however. MtFs do all that preening s**t because they are under pressure to do so in order to pass, not because they are part of the patriarchal conspiracy.

I also think that in some places (like Iran and Latin America) people are under pressure to transition because the society doesn't accept homosexuals. Radical feminists call this 'butch flight', where an increasing number of butch lesbians transition. It is hard to be a butch lesbian because all the benefits of being a woman are tied into performing the 'feminine role'. I'm not a butch and I daydream about transitioning a lot because I'm so sick of this crap - but the real fault lies with society there for defining gender roles in such a constricting way.



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04 Nov 2012, 3:29 pm

thomas81 wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
I think homosexuals are more accepted today. I think homosexuality is more common, so people are more familiar with it. Also, there is greater advocacy for homosexuality than there is for transsexuals. .


Homosexuality isn't more 'common'. Its just that more homosexuals are out as a result of better advocacy, rights advancement and greater tolerance within wider society.

In days of yore homosexuals had to remain hidden to avoid social castigation and imprisonment.

Lynn Conway's surveys (which admittedly aren't perfect) gave results of between 1:250 and 1:500. LGB people are generally said to be 3-10% of the population. That's a big difference.



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04 Nov 2012, 3:44 pm

The_Walrus wrote:
thomas81 wrote:
The_Walrus wrote:
I think homosexuals are more accepted today. I think homosexuality is more common, so people are more familiar with it. Also, there is greater advocacy for homosexuality than there is for transsexuals. .


Homosexuality isn't more 'common'. Its just that more homosexuals are out as a result of better advocacy, rights advancement and greater tolerance within wider society.

In days of yore homosexuals had to remain hidden to avoid social castigation and imprisonment.

Lynn Conway's surveys (which admittedly aren't perfect) gave results of between 1:250 and 1:500. LGB people are generally said to be 3-10% of the population. That's a big difference.


It is less than less than perfect, it is a load of nonsense. Its transparently part of the right wing mandate to label homosexuality as a 'pandemic' or 'fashionable lifestyle choice'.

You're forgetting that within the last 40 years there have been massive strides forward in public attitudes and therefore the likliehood of someone of a homosexual persuasion openly admitting their sexuality.

It isnt that homosexuals are increasing its, that the conditions for being open about it are far more tolerant.



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04 Nov 2012, 4:41 pm

XFilesGeek wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
ValentineWiggin wrote:

and that repulsed asexuals are evil for "withholding" or "denying" sex from partners who choose to be with them- that's a result of rape culture, I think.



The reason that it may be selfish is because, if this is a monogamous long-term relationship that two people are committed to make it work, then besides masturbation, you are his sole outlet for him to express himself sexually. If the understanding entering something like, say, marriage, was that: "you know, we totally get each other, we get along very well, we have great mental stimulation and emotional chemistry but we both acknowledge that one or both of us are will be more so sexually unavailable, and we're fine with that" then no harm, no foul. At least you both entered in understanding that, so its not selfish.

You have to marry with your mind, your heart, and your genitals. The last one most people are uncomfortable bringing up, and understandably so, but the sexual chemistry between two people is almost as important as the first two. Being honest at the onset helps, so does asking each other what sex means to them and how it makes them feel. And it goes both ways by the way, I feel bad for women who are stuck with a sexually unavailable man, and vice versa, especially if the sexual unavilability was misunderstood and not expected, and they've invested all this time and love only to be locked out of that.


If an asexual person enters into a relationship without making their preferences known upfront, I agree that it is selfish. I've never agreed with other asexuals who were upset when they spring their lack of desire for sex on their sexual partner, and subsequently become upset when said partner dumps them.

Personally, I don't have the ability to cater to someone else's "physical needs," nor am I able to satisfy their emotional needs. It would be grossly irresponsible of me to enter into ANY romantic relationship.


Absolutely. And this isn't even necessarily about asexual's, heterosexual males and females with low sex drives need to be aware of their partners need. Some people want it too much, I understand that extreme, but awareness, concern, and understanding on this issue would help a good many relationships out.


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