What is more acceptable to 'heteronormative people'?

Page 5 of 5 [ 68 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3, 4, 5


Do 'heteronormative people' find it more acceptable to be homosexual or trans?
I'm straight and I think homosexuality is more accepted 42%  42%  [ 13 ]
I'm straight and I think trans is more accepted 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I'm straight and I think they are equally accepted/scorned 26%  26%  [ 8 ]
I'm not straight and I think homosexuality is more accepted 19%  19%  [ 6 ]
I'm not straight and I think trans is more accepted 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I'm not straight and I think they are equally accepted/scorned 10%  10%  [ 3 ]
I'm trans and I think homosexuality is more accepted 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
I'm trans and I think trans is more accepted 3%  3%  [ 1 ]
I'm trans and I think they are equally accepted/scorned 0%  0%  [ 0 ]
Total votes : 31

GGPViper
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,139

05 Nov 2012, 12:25 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
There is a problem that MtFs often go to extremes to embody the feminine stereotypes that radical feminists fight against. They attribute this to the wrong source, however. MtFs do all that preening sh** because they are under pressure to do so in order to pass, not because they are part of the patriarchal conspiracy.


I wonder how that statement would fare in the LGBT Discussion thread...


_________________
Our comforting conviction that the world makes sense rests on a secure foundation: our almost unlimited ability to ignore our ignorance.

- Daniel Kahneman


puddingmouse
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,246
Location: Cottonopolis

05 Nov 2012, 12:34 pm

GGPViper wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
There is a problem that MtFs often go to extremes to embody the feminine stereotypes that radical feminists fight against. They attribute this to the wrong source, however. MtFs do all that preening sh** because they are under pressure to do so in order to pass, not because they are part of the patriarchal conspiracy.


I wonder how that statement would fare in the LGBT Discussion thread...


I admit it was too general; not all MtFs (or even most) try to do hyperfemininity. The ones that do, stand out, however - so they are the target of radical feminist scorn. I mean, some people probably do hyperfemininity because they just want to, but that mystifies me. I usually just see it as a social pressure rather than a thing that occurs on its own. I'm talking crippling shoes, restrictive clothing, constant use of cosmetics and fake submissive behaviour here. If you say that women naturally make sacrifices in terms of time, health and sanity in order to increase their attractiveness and this is something hardwired into them - I'm talking actually doing things like maiming your own feet and putting harsh chemicals on your skin or hair. I don't think those behaviours are hardwired.

The stereotype of an MtF is that they do all these things, and whilst all stereotypes are inaccurate and harmful there is a grain of truth in them. I don't think MtFs do it because they are misogynistic (which is what rad fems think), I think they do it because society is misogynistic. Some of them seem to think being female depends on doing those things, or they think that that's what society expects of them.



GGPViper
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,139

05 Nov 2012, 1:38 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
GGPViper wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
There is a problem that MtFs often go to extremes to embody the feminine stereotypes that radical feminists fight against. They attribute this to the wrong source, however. MtFs do all that preening sh** because they are under pressure to do so in order to pass, not because they are part of the patriarchal conspiracy.


I wonder how that statement would fare in the LGBT Discussion thread...


I admit it was too general; not all MtFs (or even most) try to do hyperfemininity. The ones that do, stand out, however - so they are the target of radical feminist scorn. I mean, some people probably do hyperfemininity because they just want to, but that mystifies me. I usually just see it as a social pressure rather than a thing that occurs on its own. I'm talking crippling shoes, restrictive clothing, constant use of cosmetics and fake submissive behaviour here. If you say that women naturally make sacrifices in terms of time, health and sanity in order to increase their attractiveness and this is something hardwired into them - I'm talking actually doing things like maiming your own feet and putting harsh chemicals on your skin or hair. I don't think those behaviours are hardwired.

The stereotype of an MtF is that they do all these things, and whilst all stereotypes are inaccurate and harmful there is a grain of truth in them. I don't think MtFs do it because they are misogynistic (which is what rad fems think), I think they do it because society is misogynistic. Some of them seem to think being female depends on doing those things, or they think that that's what society expects of them.


My problem is that transgender individuals are targeted at all by feminists - a group who themselves claim to be oppressed. A recent US study found that 41 percent (not a typo) of transgender individuals have attempted suicide at some point, which probably make them the most marginalized group in society - and a hell of a lot more marginalized than even the most radical of radical feminists.

Furthermore, you make a lot of claims about the motivations of transgender individuals, but so far, I have seen no proof...

Is it possible that these individuals have a lot more problems to deal with than ill-defined notions of misogyny and patriarchy?


_________________
Our comforting conviction that the world makes sense rests on a secure foundation: our almost unlimited ability to ignore our ignorance.

- Daniel Kahneman


puddingmouse
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,246
Location: Cottonopolis

05 Nov 2012, 2:19 pm

^I was just trying to provide some insight into why radical feminists are antagonistic to trans people. I don't want to excuse their prejudice. I'm aware of how high the suicide rate is for transgender people. I don't think that's necessarily the best measure of how marginalised a group is (though it is a good one, I admit). I'm also not a fan of playing oppression Olympics. When you compare one person's experience of marginalisation to another, you automatically devalue the other person's experience. At no point did I say 'radical lesbians have it much harder than trans people'.

As for them being the most marginalised group in society, it honestly depends on which society were talking about.

You could say, 'well if you don't want to compare how oppressed one group is with another, then why make this poll?' The reason I made it was to see what hetero people thought rather than to see outright who has it worse.

Most of transgender people's problems come not from radical feminists, but from the gender norms of patriarchal society. which is what leads to their isolation and violent attacks that are made upon them. I do think they have every reason to be as concerned about patriarchy as I am.



GGPViper
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 23 Sep 2009
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,139

05 Nov 2012, 2:50 pm

puddingmouse wrote:
Most of transgender people's problems come not from radical feminists, but from the gender norms of patriarchal society. which is what leads to their isolation and violent attacks that are made upon them. I do think they have every reason to be as concerned about patriarchy as I am.


That's funny. *My* initial guess would be that the problems of transgender individuals are caused by the fact that their biological gender does not match their psychological gender... which my previously posted studies of brain structure document...

That is also the conclusion I arrive at after going through the threads on transsexualism in the LGBT Discussion thread. But apparently your expertise in the field is superior to those who are actually transgender, have a formal diagnosis, and have transitioned.

The gender norms of patriarchal society, on the other hand, seem unconvincing to me, however. Perhaps this is due to the complete lack of evidence?


_________________
Our comforting conviction that the world makes sense rests on a secure foundation: our almost unlimited ability to ignore our ignorance.

- Daniel Kahneman


puddingmouse
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,246
Location: Cottonopolis

05 Nov 2012, 7:53 pm

GGPViper wrote:
puddingmouse wrote:
Most of transgender people's problems come not from radical feminists, but from the gender norms of patriarchal society. which is what leads to their isolation and violent attacks that are made upon them. I do think they have every reason to be as concerned about patriarchy as I am.


That's funny. *My* initial guess would be that the problems of transgender individuals are caused by the fact that their biological gender does not match their psychological gender... which my previously posted studies of brain structure document...

That is also the conclusion I arrive at after going through the threads on transsexualism in the LGBT Discussion thread. But apparently your expertise in the field is superior to those who are actually transgender, have a formal diagnosis, and have transitioned.

The gender norms of patriarchal society, on the other hand, seem unconvincing to me, however. Perhaps this is due to the complete lack of evidence?


No need to spit so much venom. I meant in the sense that with a disability (no, I'm not calling transgender a disability) most of the problems, especially social problems are created externally - by ableism in society. Of course it sucks to have a disability in itself, just like it sucks for you psychological gender to not match your sex. That's why we have transitioning to ameliorate that, and I think it should be freely accessible for people who need it.

I don't deny that transgender is an actual biological thing, as I stated in my OP. I was just saying there are other elements to the problems it causes people. Why do you think transsexuals are marginalised in society? I say mostly due to traditional attitudes to sex and gender, which seems like a sensible theory (though, no I don't have evidence). You are presupposing what my views are because I label myself a feminist. This is not an unreasonable thing for you to do, but I find it frustrating to always be arguing against projections.

And now if you're going to say, 'no it's because you're a transphobic idiot with no shred of evidence', then I'll just go and :wall:



puddingmouse
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 24 Apr 2010
Age: 33
Gender: Female
Posts: 9,246
Location: Cottonopolis

05 Nov 2012, 10:09 pm

Also, I'd like to say that I have gender dysphoria myself. I don't feel that my physical gender reflects my psychological one - as psychologically I'm agender. I would genuinely like an androgynous body to match how I feel, but the results probably wouldn't be good and I still wouldn't be accepted as what I feel I am. Surgery and hormones wouldn't solve most of my problems (though I support people being able to access those things). I have dysphoria about the fact that I have a female body - but most of my problems are caused by societal gender roles. I would like to appear more androgynous, but it's hard because people expect me to look feminine (not that it's limited to appearance). I'm not saying my experience is the same as all transgender people's but I don't like the assertion that I'm ignorant about this.



jkrane
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 10 Apr 2007
Age: 32
Gender: Male
Posts: 872
Location: 39uqlksdj3ujadlskd

31 Oct 2015, 10:43 am

puddingmouse wrote:
Being homosexual, or being transsexual? I ask this because I have no idea (I'm not straight).

I'm a radical feminist myself, but I don't know how accurate the claim is that other rad fems make. They claim that trans is more acceptable to the general population or 'heteronormative people', hence the whole phenomenon of parents giving hormones to their young children who exhibit gender dysphoria. The argument runs that it's feared that those children who are not gender-conforming will grow up to be homosexual or otherwise queer, and parents fear that more than the idea that their child has a medical condition that can be 'treated' by early transition. They argue that what homophobes really object to about about homosexuality isn't so much the gay sex part of it, but the perceived or actual gender nonconformance. Medicalising this behaviour as 'trans' makes it easier to deal with.

Now, I'm not saying I buy this argument. I'm very sceptical of it because of what the trans people I've known have said. I differ from other radical feminists in that I believe trans is seriously 'for real' and not, in itself, a plot from the patriarchy. Violence and discrimination against trans people is just as shocking as it is againt cis homosexuals. You can also be gay and trans.

However, I made this poll because I honestly don't know how the majority of heterosexuals see this issue. I realise that most people who are going to reply don't have homophobic or transphobic opinions, but what do you think are the thoughts of those who do? What would be harder to deal with if you were a parent: a homosexual child or a trans one? I suspect that you would accept the child in both circumstances, but there has to be a bit of discomfort in adjusting to either situation. I personally would find it more 'comfortable' (sorry about that wording) if my child was homosexual, but I think that's because I am bisexual myself. I don't know if I would see it differently if I was totally hetero.

I also realise that the concept of 'heteronormative people' is horribly vague because everyone is an individual with their own opinion and not every person who is heteronormative sometimes is heteronormative all the time.

You do have societies in this world where homosexuals are put to death, or otherwise persecuted, but they have a cultural place for their own version of 'trans' (even if it's not equivalent to the Western medicalised version). That isn't to say that the people in that 'trans' cultural niche are seen as equals in all cases. So I think, maybe on a global scale, the rad fem argument may have a grain of truth in it, but I don't see trans and gay rights as antagonistic aims as a result.

Also, not specifically related to how 'accepted' it is, I think being trans is harder to deal with 'personally' than being gay. There's a bigger community there for you and there are more role models.


I'm fully heterosexual. Like many heterosexuals I know, we view LGBT(whatever) people as regular people, and we really don't care about their sexual preferences. Even my parents and grandparents don't care about homosexuals or transexuals. My great grandmother didn't care. It was none of their business. If a gay person, or a trans needed their help, then they'd help them. Same with me, and my friends.

I personally see sexual orientation as a sexual form of expression. Whatever floats your boat.

People are people. What you like in the bedroom, is none of my business.

So, to answer your question, most heterosexuals don't really think about the struggles of trans and gay people, because there is nothing to discriminate against in the first place. Homosexuality and even transexuality is natural, and a completely logical sexual orientation, given that there are only two sexes to choose from. Seeing as the choice is so limited, enough people will be attracted to same sex, or want to switch.

Either way, I am supportive of LGBT(whatever), and like most straight people, are not bothered by homosexuality, or transexuality, and will treat these people as regular people like everyone else.