Calling it having an A-Type (or a S-Type) Mind?

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Can I +1 every one of Callista's posts in this thread?

(Also, btbnnyr's latest post). I agree with this not asking for directions thing. I'd not even think of asking for directions.

To add to Callista's list of A-to-B journey's. I'll also sometimes in those cases try to get from B to A. Or get caught up in wondering what about B makes it worth going to. Or not be able to figure out where B is to set out to in the first place even though I know I know where it is.

Taking B as self-evident and being confused by A is a big one for me though.

But yes, there's a lot more than just social to autism.

I never ask for directions either. I always try to figure things out for myself. I rarely ask for help either, even if I should. I usually don't even know who to ask or how to ask, I just do things my own way. People think I'm eccentric. You have to be eccentric when you're all alone.

It IS true for most people whose diagnosis is Asperger as opposed to autism. Part of DSM 4 criteria for Asperger says that there is no delays other than social interaction.



Lets put it this way: if I know that I HAVE to go from A to B, then I will go from A to B. If I don't really have to, then I would wonder in different directions like you described; but that won't be disability, that would be my enjoying a little break from routine. And I would only take such break when I can afford one.

Now, when I am on my own, I know when I have to go from A to B and when I don't, so I am doing just fine. But when other people are around then THEY might "expect" me to go from A to B while I don't even know that they expect it, hence I screw up. Then they say I have disability in going from A to B. No I don't. I simply didn't know THEIR expectations (hence "social" thing). Its like if there is a race and I am not told that there is a race, then I would go 3 kilometers per hour and then they conclude that 3 kilometers per hour is my running speed. No its not! I simply wasn't told there was a race!



Have you ever consider the possibility that you are right and NT-s are wrong? Maybe the journey from A to B is NOT useful and NT-s just follow herd mentality. Case in point. Right now I have one week vacation. So I just randomly took off at random towns on the mountains. Nothing is planned. Just randomly decide where to go as I go along. Now I strategically didn't tell anyone I was leaving because they would have started pestering me that I should make hotel reservations ahead of time, while I find it a lot more convenient to be free and go wherever I wish rather than to be stuck at a particular hotel; I can always reserve it last minute.

Now, a couple of months ago when I went to Munchen this kind of thing got me into trouble: it just happened that at the particular week I was there tehre was a huge event and the entire town was booked. So I was lucky to find a REALLY expensive room after 3 hours of search. BUT this only happened once in my entire life. So the issue is very tiny on a grand scheme of things. If 99 times I do just fine and 1 time I screw up, so what? Well, here is how it can become a big thing: if NT-s happen to "watch" me during this one time then they will jump to the conclusion that I am a little kid and treat me like one ever since. So thats how its ONLY social problem (I am perfectly cool with it if NT-s just leave me alone).

On my end, I learned from my experience (even if NT-s don't think that I did). Namely, if I go to some HUGE town that is REALLY popular then I better book things ahead of time. BUT that is the ONLY time I should book things ahead of time. In all other situations I can continue to book as I go. Bottom line: I would much rather learn through my own experience than to learn by rout like NT-s do. And then ironically NT-s accuse aspies of learning by rout.

My family has always traveled by wandering. No planning, no reserving, no idear where we are going to be when the sun rises the next day. When the sun sets today, we are still on the road, heading somewhere. When people used to ask me where I was going for a week with my family, I could never tell them, because I, my mother, and my father all didn't know. We would just know that we going to drive in a certain direction, northeast to Utah or thereabouts, for eggsample. People used to think that I was evading and not telling them on purpose, until they realized that this was a pattern of wandering of our family trips.

The point of our trips seemed to be wandering around together for fun, not to see this particular sight or do that particular activity. Someone else might have observed us from the outside and decided that we lacked organization and eggsecutive functioning or something.

In the DSM-IV, Aspergers is defined as a disorder.

If you are not "disordered," you do not have AS.

The "disorder" inherent in AS is not caused by just "social stuff."

If you are not impaired, disordered, or disabled, and/or your difficulties are merely "social stuff," then you do not have an ASD. Period.

Have a nice life as an NT introvert.

I agree up to a point. If you are truly disabled by "social stuff", you may or may not have AS, but you are disabled in a very autistic-like fashion.

NT introverts aren't disabled by "social stuff". Introversion does not cause disability; if you're disabled by social stuff you may be an introvert, but there's something more going on there.

NTs with social anxiety disorder or avoidant personality disorder (among other things) are disabled by social stuff, though. And their experiences, in the area of socialization, are somewhat like those of autistic people. Some of those people will be diagnosed, or diagnose themselves, as autistic. As far as misdiagnosis goes, it could be far worse, since many of the treatments are the same. It's still important for doctors to know how to tell the difference, though. Childhood history can be quite useful, especially since in those cases of adult autism where the non-social problems are weak or absent, they will have been present in a much more noticeable fashion in childhood.

Yes, by definition Asperger's requires more than just social-skills deficits. The entire second criterion (restricted/repetitive behaviors/interests) is about non-social stuff. If you don't have that, you don't have Asperger's; but it's not impossible that a doctor with no better category to put you in might still say you have PDD-NOS, and it's likely that he truly wouldn't have any better options, diagnostically--especially if you are socially clumsy despite a lack of social anxiety. PDD-NOS of that kind would put you on the autism spectrum, though it would be a somewhat unusual case.

If faced with a patient with a lot of social anxiety and no non-social autistic traits, though, most doctors would just diagnose social anxiety disorder and treat that before worrying about whether there's any underlying neurodevelopmental disorder. In a situation like that, there's no way to tell if you're autistic at all, because all your symptoms are social and can be explained by social anxiety. So the only way to tell is to treat for social anxiety disorder, and see what, if anything, is left over after recovery. In those situations, it would probably even be a bad idea to diagnose autism right away, at least officially, because the social anxiety disorder itself is causing so much distress that it has to be the first focus of treatment. With a diagnosis of autism, you're implying that these problems are hard-wired in and can't be changed--which is not true about social anxiety disorder, whether you also have autism or not. You only diagnose both if it's clear that the person has both--as made clear by a childhood history of non-social autistic traits, or the current presence of non-social autistic traits. Otherwise, you diagnose social anxiety disorder, deal with that first, and then see whether there are any problems that stick around and warrant another diagnosis.

Bottom line? Asperger's and classic autism always have non-social components. But atypical autism need not, especially if it's the best available diagnosis for somebody with social problems that can't be accounted for by social anxiety or a personality disorder.

I am not sure why there is so much fear about the words "disorder" and "disability". I guess I am not afraid to call it what it is, but, IMO, severe social and communication skills= disorder/disability. No big deal....

It's not a big deal no, but "normal" society makes it out to be one and because of their views on it, they see us as the equivilant of "bad karma", and that's why we have a problem with it.

Shouldn't we have a problem with just "normal society"'s opinion of disability, then? We don't have to have a problem with disorder/disability itself, just because they do.

Sorry, I actually meant what you just said, I re-read it and the way that I worded it did imply what you thought it did by words, although I actually meant that we should have a problem with how they see it and us. lol Sorry about the confusion.

A path of going from being told your normal ride to an appointment is busy at that time to having an alternate ride to a doctor's appointment is a useful one. It's not one I'm always aware is a useful one. It's not one I'm always capable of going down when I'm aware its useful. Yes, that's a straight forward thing. Yes, I "should" be aware its useful. I've gone long long enough without realizing this was useful that I had to cancel appointments because of it.

I am often not aware of the usefulness of a lot of social processes that are based on asking for help, even when I actively need help - and I don't mean just asking for directions on the street, I mean I was almost kicked out of a high school because people thought I was lying about doing my work because of when the teacher actively offered help I wouldn't ask for it because it never occurred to me to get it.

The path from raw potatoes to food to eat is another example path.I know its a useful end to get to B- eating. I have no clue that raw potatoes is a possible A even when they're sitting in front of me and even when someone has explicitly told me that we have raw potatoes and how to prepare them. I might sit in a kitchen trying to figure out something to eat, not eating for hours, because I cannot figure out the path from raw potatoes to using a microwave on the potatoes to eating the potatoes. I might eat nothing. I might end up only in a day eating a can of cranberry sauce because I can't find anything else to eat, despite there being other food around to eat.

I AM disordered because a lot of things (such as whether or not I am hired, and so forth) are due to other people's decision. So if due to "social stuff" OTHER PEOPLE come to wrong conclusion that I am not hireable, then I don't get hired, even though in reality I would do the job just fine if only they were to give me a chance (hence the "only social stuff" part).

Besides, the "social" part of my disorder is far worse than most people on this forum: I don't even know most people's names or faces except for my professor and a couple of other ppl I interract a lot, I dont know how to start or continue conversation, etc. Now most ppl with Avoidant personality and other stuff has BETTER social skills than ppl with AS; in my case i have WORSE social skills. So yes i am very much AS, and this illustrates the point that AS does not affect non-social stuff.



I was simply tying real fast. What I meant by "non-social stuff" was specifically lack of SKILLS as opposed to symptoms you just mentioned. As far as special interests yes I have plenty (I was obsessed with weather as a little kid, then later I was obsessed with math/physics, then as a teen/young adult I was obsessed with Asperger and other psychological disorders, then in adulthood i was obsessed with religion). But none of them involve SKILLS. Besides, one requires only one symptom from section B. So the one I have involves the obsessions I just described; but as far as "inflexibility" (taking the same rout, etc) that one I don't have, I am pretty flexible.



In saying this, you just admitted that adult aspies don't lack skills in non-social areas. Now, if society treats them as if they do, that makes it unfair. Why should someone receive "special help" with X just because they couldn't do X as a child, while they do X perfectly well now as an adult?



Out of the examples that you provided, I did exactly ONE thing which is "being nearly kicked out of school due to not asking for help". But in this case I WAS in fact "hiding something" (as opposed to "it never occured to me to ask"). In particular, what happened was the following: there was a 5-semester sequence of graduate classes, and some people took the sequence from the very start, others jumped over first two semesters because they were partly covered in undergrad. Now, at first I wanted to have a "clean start" in grad school (after I was tired with having so many Bs as undergrad) so I decided to take that sequence from the very start. Then half a semester into it I regretted what I done, so I decided to catch up on semester 3 so I can take semester 4 during my second semester. Now, I did NOT successfully catch up. But since I didn't want to take responsibility for my mistakes I lied that I did. So I took the semester 4 during the semester 2. Now, as far as class itself is concerned I got a B, since in graduate school they grade very easily (someone even had a joke that in grad school A=average, B=bad, C=catostrophy). But the problem happened with my thesis advisor. Since I lied to him I already know semesters 3 and 4, he assigned to me the reading that was high above my level. So I would go and secretely read up on the beginning of Semester 3, and then last minute I would pull some random pages from the end of Semester 4, think of some random questions and go to his office and ask them. Now, the type of questions I was asking DID make me look like an aspie in a sense that they involved some small details in equations. But in reality it was just my way of pretending I was reading what he asked me to read when that was not the case. So as a result I was not reading what I had to read, was making very little progress and was nearly kicked out of school (my grades were good but in grad school the research matters more than courses).

Now, again this is ONLY a social stuff. After all, I don't have this problem with finding a way to appointment nor do I have a problem with cooking potatoes either. I ONLY have a problem with PEOPLE.

Besides, even with asking for help, I do it easily UNLESS I have something to hide. Now I tend to have A LOT to hide because to cover some of my lies I invent more and more lies, so that becomes a barrier. But whenever that is not the case, I ask for directions a lot. It is usually when there is no "topic" (such as engaging on religious debate OR asking for help) that I don't know how to start "small talk". Well asking for help is not a "small talk", it is a well defined thing thats why I have no trouble with it.

WOW you are lucky. My family never traveled that way, but that is how *I* like to travel. In fact if I were to tell my family thats what i do they would go crazy because they are over protective of me due to Asperger. They would want me to make all kinds of plans, but whenever I am on my own i am completely spontaneous and I love it. Like this past week I went to the general direction (mountains) without having any destination in mind. It is such a wonderful feeling to go somewhere and KNOW that I can stop at any hotel on my way any time I feel like it because I don't "expect" myself to be anywhere in particular and never to regret about any "unfulfilled plans". I changed my mind like a dozen of times (and at least 3 times I changed my mind as to whether I return on Saturday, Sunday or Monday), now that its Sunday night I know that Monday will be it

If your only problems are "social stuff," then you do not have Aspergers Disorder.

Congratulations. Enjoy your normal life.

P.S. Personal anecdotes don't "illustrate" squat.

I don't have any social anxiety. (With the exception of some OCD and transgender related stuff.) And I don't really get bothered by it even though I'm impaired. It's VERY difficult for me to communicate myself verbally. But that results in frustration, not anxiety.

However, my sensory problems, are by far the worst thing. Sensory problems are a non-social issue. So are my special interests. Which is to say I am constantly distracted by them, and find it difficult to get anything done that isn't related to them somehow...

My point, there is more than social problems in autism.