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Fnord
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03 Nov 2012, 10:36 pm

Kurgan wrote:
yellowallpaper wrote:
no scientific base? There is no scientific proof that I am not you talking to yourself right now.
Even if this world is make-believe, you're still talking to him inside this fictional world of illusions, thus it's real to anyone inside this potentially fictional world. I do not have an indigo/crystal aura. My brain is hardwired slightly differently than that of a NT and thus, I have what's called Asperger's syndrome. Security cameras, heat detectors or anything similar has ever detected any aura surrounding me.

That's right. Nothing could detect an "Aura" around you or anyone else except someone with one or more of the following maladies:
  • Cataracts: Hardening and clouding of the lens in the eye, which produces halos or "auras" around lights.
  • Diabetic hypoglycemia: One of the most dangerous short-term side effects of diabetes, in which the individual suffers a low sugar reaction. This is also called "hypoglycemic shock" or "insulin shock", and symptoms may include visual halos or "auras" around objects and people.
  • Glaucoma: An increase of fluid pressure inside the eye. Symptoms include halos or "auras" around bright lights, objects, and people. Often leads to blindness.
  • Sattler veil: Swelling of the cornea and vision problems due to insufficient oxygen supply to the surface of the eye; usually as a result of wearing contact lenses. Symptoms include visual halos or "auras" around objects and people.
The list could go on, by suffice it to say that seeing halos or "auras" around lights, objects, and people is more likely a symptoms of diseases affecting the eye (or eye irritation) than any so-called "psychic" ability.

Of course, I now expect those who believe otherwise to claim that their vision is "perfect".

:roll:


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Misslizard
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03 Nov 2012, 11:25 pm

:smurfin: :smurf: :brilsmurf: :bigsmurf:
The only indigo people I know of.
But it it makes you feel better about yourself it certainly isn't hurting anyone.



Fnord
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03 Nov 2012, 11:27 pm

Misslizard wrote:
... if it makes you feel better about yourself it certainly isn't hurting anyone.

As long as they don't start using their self-proclaimed status as an excuse for rude, unhealthy, or violent behavior, then I suppose you may have a point.


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DerStadtschutz
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04 Nov 2012, 1:18 am

yellowallpaper wrote:
TallyMan wrote:
yellowallpaper wrote:
tell you who you are.


OK. Who were you before yellowallpaper?


look up gilman yellow wallpaper,

I am you and you are me and we are all together. :)


kookoo kachoo?



DerStadtschutz
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04 Nov 2012, 1:39 am

yellowallpaper wrote:

thanks.

con means to bamboozle, so confidence is to pretend, if it gets us by, it gets us by


if con is the opposite of pro, does that mean congress is the opposite of progress?



DerStadtschutz
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04 Nov 2012, 1:46 am

Fnord wrote:
yellowallpaper wrote:
Are we better off thinking we are indigos or starseeds if we function better that way, have more confidence, etc?

No. We are better off accepting reality and learning to cope with it, than we would be if we lived in a fantasy world populated by "Indigo People" and "Starseeds".


what is "reality" exactly? We all experience our own reality.



XFilesGeek
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04 Nov 2012, 7:49 am

"Starseeds" and "Indigo Children" sound like characters in a sci-fi based porno movie........


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TallyMan
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04 Nov 2012, 7:56 am

DerStadtschutz wrote:
Fnord wrote:
yellowallpaper wrote:
Are we better off thinking we are indigos or starseeds if we function better that way, have more confidence, etc?

No. We are better off accepting reality and learning to cope with it, than we would be if we lived in a fantasy world populated by "Indigo People" and "Starseeds".


what is "reality" exactly? We all experience our own reality.


Reality is that which can be objectified and repeatedly demonstrated to exist and behave in a consistent and ordered way outside of our own personal experience. The difference is like that between the "reality" of ephemeral dreams / hallucinations and measurable external reality.


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JNathanK
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04 Nov 2012, 12:44 pm

TallyMan wrote:
DerStadtschutz wrote:
Fnord wrote:
yellowallpaper wrote:
Are we better off thinking we are indigos or starseeds if we function better that way, have more confidence, etc?

No. We are better off accepting reality and learning to cope with it, than we would be if we lived in a fantasy world populated by "Indigo People" and "Starseeds".


what is "reality" exactly? We all experience our own reality.


Reality is that which can be objectified and repeatedly demonstrated to exist and behave in a consistent and ordered way outside of our own personal experience. The difference is like that between the "reality" of ephemeral dreams / hallucinations and measurable external reality.



Even in hallucinations, there is an objective dimension that's repeatable. Archaeologists and psychologists studying cave paintings, western psychedelic research, and aboriginal myths, shamanistic initiation rights, etc. have found an undeniable consistency. There's what's called entopic phenomena and therianthropic creatures that come up repeatedly in altered states of consciousness, whether its our record of them from 20,000 year old cave paintings or reports from psychedelic test subjects from the 1960's.

There's even an undeniable consistency in dream content from person to person, and even mythology from culture to culture. Of course, different people are going to have different spin on the same theme (like the names and symbols and language they use to interpret it), but that even goes for objective, physical world. We all can look at the world and be in agreement on about 99% of it, but because of our different points of view that are inherent within subjective experience, were all going to have varying takes on what the objective world is exactly.



Fnord
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04 Nov 2012, 12:52 pm

JNathanK wrote:
Even in hallucinations, there is an objective dimension that's repeatable. Archaeologists and psychologists studying cave paintings, western psychedelic research, and aboriginal myths, shamanistic initiation rights, etc. have found an undeniable consistency...

All human brains are essentially alike, and will have similar responses to hallucinogenic chemicals, anoxia, illness, and mental disorders.

Thus, it is understandable that there is some form of consistency to myths related to altered brain states, and there is also no reason to believe that this is evidence of an altered reality.


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JNathanK
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04 Nov 2012, 1:01 pm

Fnord wrote:
JNathanK wrote:
Even in hallucinations, there is an objective dimension that's repeatable. Archaeologists and psychologists studying cave paintings, western psychedelic research, and aboriginal myths, shamanistic initiation rights, etc. have found an undeniable consistency...

All human brains are essentially alike, and will have similar responses to hallucinogenic chemicals, anoxia, illness, and mental disorders.

Thus, it is understandable that there is some form of consistency to myths related to altered brain states, and there is also no reason to believe that this is evidence of an altered reality.


Well, yah, of course. ...but it is evidence of an altered reality, and the reality being perceived is precisely that, the same sense information we normally take in but interpreted in an altered way from what is typical. The fact that our similar neurology enables us to see the same things in these states doesn't disprove an objective element to altered consciousness. It actually reinforces it.



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04 Nov 2012, 1:12 pm

JNathanK wrote:
Fnord wrote:
JNathanK wrote:
Even in hallucinations, there is an objective dimension that's repeatable. Archaeologists and psychologists studying cave paintings, western psychedelic research, and aboriginal myths, shamanistic initiation rights, etc. have found an undeniable consistency...
All human brains are essentially alike, and will have similar responses to hallucinogenic chemicals, anoxia, illness, and mental disorders. Thus, it is understandable that there is some form of consistency to myths related to altered brain states, and there is also no reason to believe that this is evidence of an altered reality.
Well, yah, of course. ...but it is evidence of an altered reality...

No, it is evidence of altered subjective perception. Objective reality remains the same; only the mind of the hallucinating person is affected.

JNathanK wrote:
... and the reality being perceived is precisely that, the same sense information we normally take in but interpreted in an altered way from what is typical.

Never confuse subjective perception with objective reality; the former is merely an internal interpretation of sensory experience, while the latter is the measurable realm of physical activity.

JNathanK wrote:
The fact that our similar neurology enables us to see the same things in these states doesn't disprove an objective element to altered consciousness. It actually reinforces it.

The only objective conclusions that can be reached regarding altered consciousness are (1) Perception is distorted; (2) Mentation is disrupted; (3) Memory is re-written; and therefore, (4) Reports of an alternate reality are unreliable.


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04 Nov 2012, 5:04 pm

Fnord wrote:
JNathanK wrote:
Fnord wrote:
JNathanK wrote:
Even in hallucinations, there is an objective dimension that's repeatable. Archaeologists and psychologists studying cave paintings, western psychedelic research, and aboriginal myths, shamanistic initiation rights, etc. have found an undeniable consistency...
All human brains are essentially alike, and will have similar responses to hallucinogenic chemicals, anoxia, illness, and mental disorders. Thus, it is understandable that there is some form of consistency to myths related to altered brain states, and there is also no reason to believe that this is evidence of an altered reality.
Well, yah, of course. ...but it is evidence of an altered reality...

No, it is evidence of altered subjective perception. Objective reality remains the same; only the mind of the hallucinating person is affected.

JNathanK wrote:
... and the reality being perceived is precisely that, the same sense information we normally take in but interpreted in an altered way from what is typical.

Never confuse subjective perception with objective reality; the former is merely an internal interpretation of sensory experience, while the latter is the measurable realm of physical activity.

JNathanK wrote:
The fact that our similar neurology enables us to see the same things in these states doesn't disprove an objective element to altered consciousness. It actually reinforces it.

The only objective conclusions that can be reached regarding altered consciousness are (1) Perception is distorted; (2) Mentation is disrupted; (3) Memory is re-written; and therefore, (4) Reports of an alternate reality are unreliable.


Objective reality is mostly a cultural construct though that ultimately stems back to a foundation of subjective experience. Whatever this objective reality is on its own, we don't really know for sure what it is in its absolute. It could be that the hallucinating individual is perceiving objective reality on a different spectrum from the narrow perspective that it is usually perceived by humans.

The fact Shamans all seem so see similar phenomena lends credibility to it. I mean, if people accross space and time reported seeing or experiencing similar things in any mundane scenario, like their experiences with hunting or collecting water, we'd use this as a basis for constructing an objective model. However, when a bunch of people, across different epochs report encountering therianthropic entities and entopic phenomena in a trance state, then some arbitrary rule happens to be made by modern man for ruling this out for our consensus model of things. You said it has solely to do with similarity in brains, but I could argue similarity in camera structure for why different lense filters give similar effects on different cameras.

There's no proof that memory is re-written, as if old information was erased and replaced with new info. What's more likely happening is that memory is forming in patterns that are alien to how it is usually formed. Its just a different way of assembling or interpreting the same sense data coming in from the objective sphere.

A shamanistic experience could be a lot like looking through a kaleidoscope. The light waves hitting the apparatus are no different from the light waves hitting the eye. Its just they're assembled into a perceptual image that is peculiar to the usual parabolic image that the eye creates. (Interestingly, Isaac Newton perturbed the shape of his eye by pressing on it to understand how light works) Perhaps Shamanistic experiences are valuable in that they are different ways of filtering sensory information. Just as we find out a lot of new, nifty information through spectrometers, microscopes, and telescopes from filtering visible light in different ways, maybe Shamanistic trances will prove valuable for filtering sensory information in different ways.



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05 Nov 2012, 7:55 pm

If someone is a starseed, then they should probably go find a star-egg to fertilize.



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05 Nov 2012, 8:05 pm

Cash__ wrote:
If someone is a starseed, then they should probably go find a star-egg to fertilize.


Well that would be earth then



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05 Nov 2012, 9:36 pm

yellowallpaper wrote:
no scientific base? There is no scientific proof that I am not you talking to yourself right now.
You were not talking, you were typing. And there is enough evidence - your very text. Ocam's razor tells me that you typed it.

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The post isn't about whether star children exist or not. Its about whether or not living though a self empowering personal narrative is a better way of living than by a self defeating one.
If your "empowering personal narrative" is based on bullshit, that's a recipe for disaster.


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