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Vexcalibur
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04 Nov 2012, 9:35 pm

Jitro wrote:
They're as much alive and prehuman as a week old fetus is. Should birth control pills, condoms and tube tying be banned because they kill sperm cells?
No, because fetuses aren't people either and thus perfectly all right to kill fetuses and sperm.


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blackelk
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04 Nov 2012, 9:43 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Jitro wrote:
They're as much alive and prehuman as a week old fetus is. Should birth control pills, condoms and tube tying be banned because they kill sperm cells?
No, because fetuses aren't people either and thus perfectly all right to kill fetuses and sperm.


This again? People are humans. A fetus is a life form, sperm isn't a life form.


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Vexcalibur
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04 Nov 2012, 9:46 pm

Sperm is as much of a life form as a fetus.

Bunnies are life forms. That does not make them people.


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Apple_in_my_Eye
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04 Nov 2012, 9:47 pm

I wonder if the church realized that they were inadvertently promoting the gay agenda?


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abacacus
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04 Nov 2012, 9:54 pm

Shatbat wrote:
Oh god no :lol: Although now that this topic is being discussed more in-depth, does anyone know the Catholic Church's argument against the use of condoms and other contraceptive methods?


"If you get pregnant, that's God's will, and you should never interfere with His decisions."

Basically a crock of crap.


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04 Nov 2012, 10:02 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Sperm is as much of a life form as a fetus.

Bunnies are life forms. That does not make them people.


No, it isn't. If you incubate and nourish a sperm, it will become nothing. If you incubate and nourish a fetus, it will become a fully grown human. Just like any human organism.


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DerStadtschutz
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04 Nov 2012, 11:41 pm

Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
My sperm would tremble in fear if they knew how many of their brothers I've killed.

On another note, doesn't the bible say something about how a man isn't supposed to spill his seed on the ground?


I'm no expert on the bible, but I'm pretty sure it does say that, which is retarded, by the way, because you can either shoot it into a vagina, masturbate, or let it just seep out on its own. Either way, your body keeps making it until you die(or your nuts get cut off), and it has to go SOMEWHERE. So unless you get married as soon as you start making it and then force your wife to have sex with you all the time, some of it will be "spilled." Actually, even if you shoot it all inside a vagina, it STILL runs out... Yeah, this is why I'm not a christian. so many stupid rules that absolutely CANNOT be followed.



Apple_in_my_Eye
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04 Nov 2012, 11:56 pm

^ MissLizard knew the reference --> "sin of Onan"

As far as sperm, if you have a vasectomy they have nowhere to go and are "absorbed" by the body. I think it has something to do with the immune system killing off the old sperm somehow.
So, once again, contraception is murder! :lol:


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Oodain
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05 Nov 2012, 3:15 am

wouldnt the dead cells be filtered just like any other dead cell in the body?

then again they would need a way to do that, hmm curiosity strikes.


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Apple_in_my_Eye
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05 Nov 2012, 4:50 am

Yeah, I imagine so, but I'm not sure how they'd get into the bloodstream where immune system cells could grab them -- or do they end up in the lymphatic system. I dunno.


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05 Nov 2012, 7:33 am

DerStadtschutz wrote:
Apple_in_my_Eye wrote:
My sperm would tremble in fear if they knew how many of their brothers I've killed.

On another note, doesn't the bible say something about how a man isn't supposed to spill his seed on the ground?


I'm no expert on the bible, but I'm pretty sure it does say that, which is retarded, by the way, because you can either shoot it into a vagina, masturbate, or let it just seep out on its own. Either way, your body keeps making it until you die(or your nuts get cut off), and it has to go SOMEWHERE. So unless you get married as soon as you start making it and then force your wife to have sex with you all the time, some of it will be "spilled." Actually, even if you shoot it all inside a vagina, it STILL runs out... Yeah, this is why I'm not a christian. so many stupid rules that absolutely CANNOT be followed.

Christian faith is based primarily on the New Testament. The Old Testament in my view is more background information that substantiates Christian beliefs about the Messiah. The OT in practice is more relevant to the Israelite religion than it is to Christians. "The rules" serve a variety of purposes, but even the Tanakh admits that human failing can't possibly hold up to the righteousness of Yahweh. "The rules" tell us how to approach righteousness. Our insufficiency in holding to "the rules" teaches us that we cannot attain righteousness on our own. It is faith in what God has done for us that opens the door to divine reconciliation, not works of the law.

The OT view of "spilling seed" is that it is unsanitary and ceremonially unclean. This even applies to married couples having sex, btw. Couples who want to appear in the assembly cannot have sex after sunrise. If they do, they are unclean. But all they have to do is wash themselves and they are considered clean after sunset. And it should be noted that this cleanness/uncleanness has to do with religious observances and isn't required for usual daily life. It would just mean that, say, if you saw a Levite in the street who wanted to shake hands with you or something, you'd have to tell him that you're unclean since holiness laws apply to the priest class 24/7.

The OT recognized that men sometimes have "emissions" in the night. This is a cause of ritual uncleanness, and there are rules outlining what to do about it. It's not a condemnation of what happens beyond our control. If it were, there wouldn't be anything in place to remedy it.

Masturbation is likewise not something the OT treats as a disease. It is merely "improper." It shouldn't be done, but nobody is going to cut your pecker off over it.

Regarding the sin of Onan: Nobody knows what the sin of Onan was. The Bible doesn't tell us, and you'll know that if you carefully read the text. The point was Onan did evil in the sight of the Lord. Refusing to provide an heir for his brother was the ultimate demonstration of blatant disobedience (in Onan's case) and showed that he had progressed to a point that he had no redeemable qualities. Spilling seed is not a terrible sin. Refusing to produce an heir in the formative years of the Israelite nation would have had severe consequences for the nation as a whole. It was the culmination of the whole of Er and Onan's wickedness in Onan's final recorded sinful act that resulted in his death. And the Bible doesn't mention how much time passed between this incident and Onan's death, nor does it mention anything else he did that kept him on God's bad side. It merely expresses contempt for Onan being an @$$hole to Tamar and his dead brother. Taken in context, it isn't silly or stupid.



ArrantPariah
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05 Nov 2012, 8:10 am

AngelRho wrote:
nobody is going to cut your pecker off over it.



Well, that is very charitable.

Particularly in light of

Deuteronomy 23 wrote:
He that is wounded in the stones, or hath his privy member cut off, shall not enter into the congregation of the LORD.



DerStadtschutz
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05 Nov 2012, 3:11 pm

AngelRho wrote:
Masturbation is likewise not something the OT treats as a disease. It is merely "improper." It shouldn't be done, but nobody is going to cut your pecker off over it.


So... WHY shouldn't it be done, exactly? And WHY is it "unclean" to have sex after sunrise? Seriously, all these stupid rules... I'll have sex whenever the hell I feel like it, and I don't care what some oldass book has to say about any of it.



Vexcalibur
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05 Nov 2012, 3:48 pm

blackelk wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Sperm is as much of a life form as a fetus.

Bunnies are life forms. That does not make them people.


No, it isn't. If you incubate and nourish a sperm, it will become nothing. If you incubate and nourish a fetus, it will become a fully grown human. Just like any human organism.

If the sperm finds an egg, it will become a zygote. If it turns out the host is compatible and the zygote is nourished, it will become a fetus, which if nourished and not aborted will become a pre-born baby. Then goes birth, if the pre-born has luck not to die and/or kill its mother during birth, it becomes a baby. If the baby is nourished, and with some luck does not get infected by bacteria or virus at an early stage, the baby might become a child. The child might become an adult if (s)he does not die from any-thing, has good access to education, welfare and healthcare, and also with a ton of luck.

Then there is a potential that this person becomes a politician and with its poisonous tongue takes the world to WW3. AH! Potential. Every fetus is a potential Next Hitler, right, and every sperm is a potential fetus of the next Hitler. But Potential != Reality . It really never was. Not all sperms become fetuses, but some do. Not all fetuses become babies, but some do. It does not matter, sperms are still not fetuses, fetuses are still not people, but sperm are living entities and so are fetuses. Just because a fetus exist, there is no guarantee it will become Hitler. But maybe with some luck.


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05 Nov 2012, 3:51 pm

Jitro wrote:
They're as much alive and prehuman as a week old fetus is. Should birth control pills, condoms and tube tying be banned because they kill sperm cells?


They are human cells but they do not have the potential to become a person by themselves, like a zygote, embryo or fetus does.

I don't have a problem with killing sperm cells, or letting eggs die. I'm also pro choice and think abortion should stay legal up until the age of viability of the baby.

However, some religious beliefs say that it's a sin.

Although if you consider sperm cells to be human life, then you are probably gonna wanna start a cemetary with some wadded up tissues that a whole lot of guys have on the floor by their beds.


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ruveyn
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05 Nov 2012, 5:30 pm

No. There are always more where they came from.

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