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DarthMetaKnight
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06 Nov 2012, 11:05 pm

Here's something I'm sick of: I'm sick of hearing people talk about "preserving culture". Sometimes they are talking about white culture. Sometimes they are talking about black culture. Sometimes they are talking about Jewish culture. It all sounds the same to me.

I have taken stabs at America in the past but I think that the worst country ever is China. China shows us what happens when the government spends tons of time preserving culture. China is probably the most racist country in the world. Many Chinese people actually believe that they are a different species from the rest of humanity. I learned that a couple of days ago when I was watching and episode of The Incredible Human Journey.

China's intense cultural conservatism has stripped the Chinese people of anything remotely resembling humanity. A while ago a Chinese man sued his wife because their child was "ugly" ... and he won the lawsuit. In most countries parents don't call their children ugly because they simply know that that's wrong.

http://planetivy.com/news/12331/man-divorces-sues-wife-for-being-ugly-wins/

I wish that people on the right on the right and the left would stop trying to hold humanity back with their "cultural preservation" nonsense.


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Jacoby
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07 Nov 2012, 12:58 am

I agree, I very much favor the melting pot over multiculturalism.



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07 Nov 2012, 1:39 am

It shall be only one contributor to their downfall.
And I will laugh. :lol:


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Tequila
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07 Nov 2012, 1:39 am

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Here's something I'm sick of: I'm sick of hearing people talk about "preserving culture". Sometimes they are talking about white culture. Sometimes they are talking about black culture. Sometimes they are talking about Jewish culture. It all sounds the same to me.


That depends what you mean. I think some cultural conservatism is a good idea - i.e. to avoid deliberately inserting other people's (far inferior) culture into a society. Objecting to African-style witch burnings and witch doctors, or Christian religious fundamentalism, or things like that taking root in British society could be called cultural conservatism, because we've progressed from all that.

i.e. You could say that resisting malign influences is cultural conservatism if your society has progressed from these influences.



MarketAndChurch
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07 Nov 2012, 1:42 am

Preserving culture is important, and does not have to conflict with the melting pot ideal.

The melting pot ideal is that we all have a shared culture, an accepted history we buy into (basic American history, the founding), and we all affirm Americanism as the American way, even if we disagree with it (morally, theologically, philosophically, etc.).

What troubles me are two things:

    1.) When immigrants only staywith their group, 2-3 generations after their parents/grand-parents came here and do not move out amongst the native population, and,

    2.) When American federal institutions embrace multiculturalism. The education system is to be free of anything that embraces something other then Americanism. That's it. You want to commemorate Jewish history or ethnic celebration day of some sort, that's absolutely fine, but the government should not support anything other then Americanism.


Other then that, keep your culture, celebrate your holidays, build little saigons and little italy's, it only adds to our richness as a nation, and fosters community, so I'm all for it.


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Tequila
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07 Nov 2012, 1:44 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:
What troubles me are two things:

    1.) When immigrants only staywith their group, 2-3 generations after their parents/grand-parents came here and do not move out amongst the native population, and,

    2.) When American federal institutions embrace multiculturalism. The education system is to be free of anything that embraces something other then Americanism. That's it. You want to commemorate Jewish history or ethnic celebration day of some sort, that's absolutely fine, but the government should not support anything other then Americanism.


We've got both of these in Britain.



MarketAndChurch
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07 Nov 2012, 2:31 am

Tequila wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
What troubles me are two things:

    1.) When immigrants only staywith their group, 2-3 generations after their parents/grand-parents came here and do not move out amongst the native population, and,

    2.) When American federal institutions embrace multiculturalism. The education system is to be free of anything that embraces something other then Americanism. That's it. You want to commemorate Jewish history or ethnic celebration day of some sort, that's absolutely fine, but the government should not support anything other then Americanism.


We've got both of these in Britain.


It is utterly destructive and very unfortunate.

The first creates self-imposed ghettos, they are not free and open to ideas of others, and their insularity allows them to harbor misinformed views of those who are not like them. The second is utterly destructive and is the undoing of a nation. The first is on the micro, the second on the macro, and those who tolerate it do so out of compassion, but it is not good enough to just have good intentions. One wants to make foreigners feel good about their heritage, ancestry, culture, ethnicity? There are ways of doing that without creating a set of special standards for them that you would never get away with if you were to apply it to your own. They must equally make an effort to meet us halfway and adopt a few of our western values.


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marshall
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07 Nov 2012, 11:58 am

Jacoby wrote:
I agree, I very much favor the melting pot over multiculturalism.

It seems like the "melting pot" idea works a lot better in the "New World" than the "Old World". In the America's only a tiny minority can really claim to be the "indigenous" culture, namely Native Americans. Europe is different. Those who see themselves as the true natives are more prone to ethnic snobbery. It's really inevitable. Minorities feel more alienated by this and respond by not integrating with the host culture. In the case of Muslims this is particularly bad. I'm not saying elements of the Muslim culture aren't incompatible, but you'd expect them to let go of that "old school" thinking over time and get with the program, if it wasn't for some kind of resentment of being seen as second class citizens. I think European countries really need to start having stricter immigration rules if they can't deal with their minorities.



Last edited by marshall on 07 Nov 2012, 12:08 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ruveyn
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07 Nov 2012, 12:00 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Here's something I'm sick of: I'm sick of hearing people talk about "preserving culture". Sometimes they are talking about white culture. Sometimes they are talking about black culture. Sometimes they are talking about Jewish culture. It all sounds the same to me.



Not the same. Jewish culture -requires- abstract intelligence.

It is the difference between Apollo and Dionesius.

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TM
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07 Nov 2012, 12:08 pm

marshall wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I agree, I very much favor the melting pot over multiculturalism.

It seems like the "melting pot" idea works a lot better in the "New World" than the "Old World". In the America's only a tiny minority can really claim to be the "indigenous" culture, namely Native Americans. Europe is different. Those who see themselves as the true natives are more prone to ethnic snobbery. It's really inevitable. Minorities feel more alienated by this and respond by not integrating with the host culture. In the case of Muslims this is particularly bad. I'm not saying elements of the Muslim culture aren't incompatible, but you'd expect them to let go of that "old school" thinking over time and get with the program if it wasn't for some kind of resentment of being seen as second class citizens. I think European countries really need to start having stricter immigration rules if they can't deal with their minorities.


The reason it works is that the "American way" in essence forces cross-cultural interaction, whereas European welfare states do not. It's fully possible for a let's say Somalian woman to stay in her house/her neighborhood, never interacting with anyone outside her culture, because the combination of child support money from the state and other social benefits often amount to more than she could earn working. In a sense the U.S forces immigrants to integrate by forcing them to support themselves.



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07 Nov 2012, 12:45 pm

TM wrote:
marshall wrote:
Jacoby wrote:
I agree, I very much favor the melting pot over multiculturalism.

It seems like the "melting pot" idea works a lot better in the "New World" than the "Old World". In the America's only a tiny minority can really claim to be the "indigenous" culture, namely Native Americans. Europe is different. Those who see themselves as the true natives are more prone to ethnic snobbery. It's really inevitable. Minorities feel more alienated by this and respond by not integrating with the host culture. In the case of Muslims this is particularly bad. I'm not saying elements of the Muslim culture aren't incompatible, but you'd expect them to let go of that "old school" thinking over time and get with the program if it wasn't for some kind of resentment of being seen as second class citizens. I think European countries really need to start having stricter immigration rules if they can't deal with their minorities.


The reason it works is that the "American way" in essence forces cross-cultural interaction, whereas European welfare states do not. It's fully possible for a let's say Somalian woman to stay in her house/her neighborhood, never interacting with anyone outside her culture, because the combination of child support money from the state and other social benefits often amount to more than she could earn working. In a sense the U.S forces immigrants to integrate by forcing them to support themselves.


Are you talking about Scandinavia though? In the UK it is not that easy to live off welfare.

I also happen to think having a sharp cutoff in terms of means testing is stupid. Something like a negative income tax set near the poverty level would be more efficient. Since income initially comes in on top of rather than replacing the base welfare income, there's no possibility of earning more by not working. You could also lower the minimum wage to remove some of the entry barrier for small businesses and encourage employment. If you want you can also require non-profit community service from families with able members who are not children or students but choose not to look for work. I still think there is a way to implement a social safety net while still ensuring that all citizens contribute if they are able to.



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07 Nov 2012, 2:03 pm

^ If you've got children, it's easier to live off welfare than it is to live off the minimum wage in Britain, when you factor in the bills you start having to pay when you get a job and the the transport to and from work (fuel is expensive here, as is public transport).



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07 Nov 2012, 7:53 pm

My take on it is pretty simple.


The US government and education system should niether suppress diversity, nor subsidize it.

If folks wanna be different, thats fine, but they have to do it on their own time.

The job of the education system is to train people in our society to survive in our society by learning English and so forth.

That way in an immigrant society like the usa you get enough diversity to enrich the country, but not so much diversity that you weaken the country.

But I do agree with the OP that the way people often make a fetish out of "perserving culture" from outsiders can be absurd-even amusing.

Language itsself is a battleground.

The French and the Germans have "language commisions" to decide whether or not to allow words into their languages because they are afraid of the invasion of English.

And then within the English speaking world Brits resent Americanisms creeping into British English.

It can be rather laughable.

Im mean - the French getting all GALVINIZED by making a CAUSE CELEB out of giving the COUP DE GRACE to invasive English words? Youd think that they would be afraid that we would retaliate against their linguistic CHAUVINISM by showing a little ESPRIT DE CORP of our own, and DEPORT all the words and phrases that weve borrowed from their language!



Last edited by naturalplastic on 07 Nov 2012, 11:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.

ruveyn
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07 Nov 2012, 10:08 pm

naturalplastic wrote:

The French and the Germans have "language commisions" to decide whether or not to allow words into their languages because they are afraid of the invasion of English.

And then within the English speaking world Brits resent Americanisms creeping into British English.



Language is a completely democratic institution. People say what the want to say in words of their own choosing. Language cannot be dictated effectively.

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08 Nov 2012, 5:52 am

Cultural Conservatism leads to cultural stagnation. Always has, always will.


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08 Nov 2012, 1:36 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
Here's something I'm sick of: I'm sick of hearing people talk about "preserving culture". Sometimes they are talking about white culture. Sometimes they are talking about black culture. Sometimes they are talking about Jewish culture. It all sounds the same to me.

I have taken stabs at America in the past but I think that the worst country ever is China. China shows us what happens when the government spends tons of time preserving culture. China is probably the most racist country in the world. Many Chinese people actually believe that they are a different species from the rest of humanity. I learned that a couple of days ago when I was watching and episode of The Incredible Human Journey.

China's intense cultural conservatism has stripped the Chinese people of anything remotely resembling humanity. A while ago a Chinese man sued his wife because their child was "ugly" ... and he won the lawsuit. In most countries parents don't call their children ugly because they simply know that that's wrong.

http://planetivy.com/news/12331/man-divorces-sues-wife-for-being-ugly-wins/

I wish that people on the right on the right and the left would stop trying to hold humanity back with their "cultural preservation" nonsense.


Cultural convservatism is the same as genetic inbreeding. Do it for too long and things get mighty ugly and self-destructive.