Was your great (several times) grandfather a furry ape?

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Jitro
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11 Nov 2012, 12:00 pm

Do you believe so?



IdahoRose
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11 Nov 2012, 1:05 pm

Nope. I believe that I descended from Adam and Eve. I won't stop other people from believing that they descended from apes though.



Magnus_Rex
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11 Nov 2012, 1:27 pm

We are apes, actually. Some of us are even hairy. But I could not care less if there are people believing they are descended from a pile of dirt who magically became alive or some advanced aliens or whatever.

Since we are talking about living piles of dirt:
[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEgTcullKJI[/youtube]


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DerStadtschutz
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11 Nov 2012, 1:29 pm

IdahoRose wrote:
Nope. I believe that I descended from Adam and Eve. I won't stop other people from believing that they descended from apes though.


You realize that cro magnon(the species of human that is anatomically identical to us and lived with the neanderthals) existed like 35K-40K years ago, right? It would have been over a million years ago that your ancestors were apes. The fact that it was long ago doesn't change that fact. Also, over 90% of our DNA is shared with chimpanzees, so if we didn't come from apes, would you care to explain that one?



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11 Nov 2012, 1:49 pm

After a big enough number of "great"s before that grandfather, yes. And going back even further, I bet I'd stumble upon a fish ancestor.


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Cornflake
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11 Nov 2012, 1:50 pm

[Moved from Random Discussion to PPR]


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Raptor
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11 Nov 2012, 2:01 pm

I concur with General Pickett's beliefs on this subject.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UFc3DDTPXXo[/youtube]


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puddingmouse
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11 Nov 2012, 2:39 pm

My dad is a furry ape, let alone my great (several times) grandfather.



ruveyn
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11 Nov 2012, 3:05 pm

IdahoRose wrote:
Nope. I believe that I descended from Adam and Eve. I won't stop other people from believing that they descended from apes though.


when did adam and eve live. How long ago?

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Jacoby
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11 Nov 2012, 3:12 pm

Never met the man.



TheBicyclingGuitarist
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11 Nov 2012, 3:15 pm

Humans aren't just ordinary apes. We are great apes! There are literally tons of evidence showing our kinship to the other great apes, but one of the strongest pieces of evidence is the structure of human chromosome 2. It shows many clear signs of being two ape chromosomes that fused together end to end. It is practically a smoking gun showing how closely we are related to our ape cousins.

I'm willing to concede that the God of the Bible made us out of dirt and created us separately from all other creatures, IF you concede that all the evidence says otherwise. What I would be conceding is that the God of the Bible (IF He is our Creator) clearly made it LOOK like evolution happens. Why? Maybe to test our faith?

Now I don't know if the God of the Bible is our Creator or not, and one of the reasons I don't know is because of the evidence for evolution. I also am turned away by the ignorant and misinformed assertions of some Christians who try to tell me the evidence does not support evolution or that it supports special creation just as much all in how you look at it. BS! The progression over time of the fossil record is not easily explained by special creation unless you say God "poofed" each species into existence at just the right place in the rocks to make it LOOK like evolution happens, and if you do that then already you are contradicting a literal reading of Genesis.

The genetic evidence is even stronger. Besides human chromosome 2, the patterns of nested hierarchies of many different types of data when comparing the DNA of different species produce the same tree of life as each other and also match what is found in the fossil record. So I would ask WHY don't you accept the observed fact of evolution? Could it be you're too proud to admit you're related to a monkey? Don't forget pride is one of the seven deadly sins. Oh, I wrote a song that says this:

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5yfPwGLYLsI[/youtube]


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11 Nov 2012, 3:44 pm

Nope,a primitive amphibian,then later an ape.



thomas81
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11 Nov 2012, 3:46 pm

IdahoRose wrote:
Nope. I believe that I descended from Adam and Eve. I won't stop other people from believing that they descended from apes though.


Respectfully, I suppose you also believe that Noah herded 2 of every species onto a ship right?



naturalplastic
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11 Nov 2012, 4:24 pm

IdahoRose wrote:
Nope. I believe that I descended from Adam and Eve. I won't stop other people from believing that they descended from apes though.


Adam and eve, in turn, were fashinoned by God "from mud".

So its a question of 'are humans modified mud, or are humans modified apes?"


For some reason some people are passionate that being modified mud is surperior to being modified apes- I dont see how or why it would make a difference-but thats a seperate question.

But I digress.

Back to the original question of "are humans modified mud, or modified apes?"

But before we address that question we must first ask "where did the apes come from?"

Presumably from other primates which inturn came from other mammals etc etc back down the lineage leading back to fish, then to invertabrate worms, then back to microbes.

This leading back to the first cell billions of years ago. Which evolved from non living matter. Matter which was probably some kind of mix of solid matter and water- that might generically be called "mud".

So both notions begin with "mud". The difference, it would seem to be only in the number of intermediate steps between the mud and the human stage that are spelled out.

So it might be that God just omitted the intermediate steps when he dictated the Old Testament. Most likely because the audience back then would not have understood what all that zoological stuff was about. Besides- it doesnt have squat to do with stuff like "thou shalt not steal" that he was trying to teach the human race.

Which means the OT wasnt really meant to be used as geology textbook.



ruveyn
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11 Nov 2012, 5:08 pm

Go back far enough and all life originated in bubbling mineral filled mode or lukewarm pools of highly mineralized water.

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The_Walrus
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11 Nov 2012, 5:09 pm

IdahoRose wrote:
Nope. I believe that I descended from Adam and Eve. I won't stop other people from believing that they descended from apes though.

In order for all of humanity to be descended from two individuals who existed just before the start of recorded history, we would need a rate of mutation much higher than the actual figure. Also world population growth in that first 100 years or so of pre-history would have to be much higher than the first years of history, despite conditions not being much different.

Not sharing common descent with other animals would also go against a large body of evidence. Examples:

1) The way of DNA is used as a code is identical to that of most lifeforms. There is no reason why that should be the case, except the same code being stumbled upon.
2) Vestigal organs- for example, the short hairs that cover most of the human body, and stand on end when we are cold. These serve no purpose in humans, but are vital for most mammals in keeping them warm.
3) Humans have one pair of chromosomes fewer than the other great apes. Chromosomes have "ends" called teleomeres. Our chromosome #2 has teleomeres in the middle as well as at each end, indicating it is the result of two chromosomes fusing. Other markers show us that these are two chimp chromosomes that have fused.
4) Our genes and the genes of other animals are often identical. There's no need for them to be identical, because many changes would still result in the same protein being formed.