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TAFKASH
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03 Apr 2005, 5:30 pm

Glenn wrote:
Someone like Hitler, for example, never developed beyond the infantile state when only ‘self’ is real. To him, other people and their lives an emotions were both unreal and unimportant... he was the supreme egotistical child, greedy for power and for his own desires and needs to be gratified. Taken to extremes, we see this as pure evil, and so it is, I guess. But most people, as they mature, learn that such attitudes are destructive and hateful. They realise that people are all similar, with the same hopes and feelings - perhaps they realise that we are all one creation (as discussed above) and therefore to cause pain to others can ultimately hurt you too, and it will be self inflicted harm, not something done by a vengeful God! In other words; such people have managed to change, to learn, to build upon what nature doled out to them. They have (gasp) CHANGED !


Yes - in different circumstances Hitler would have changed and become a different person - but those circumstances didn't happen, did they? Hitler never had a real choice in becoming the person he became..... He never had the chance to mature beyond his nurture/nature induced child-like destructive ego...... If circumstances had have been different I'm sure he'd have won Miss World 1933 while selling record numbers of girl guide cookies to fund the building of hospitals for sick orphans..... If my uncle had tits he'd be my auntie..... IF, IF, IF...... But IF didn't blinking well happen, did it? Noone can make IF happen if their nature precludes it..... "Evil" people can become "good" through IF happening to them, but the occurrence of IF or not is purely beyond their control.....

We can't alter the people that we are, or the way we generally respond to life occurrences, and thence to our "destiny"...... The kind of people we are can be changed by these life occurences, but not consciously.... This can't be argued against people..... I'm sorry, but it can't.... Especially not against as fearsome a foe as I :wink:

vetivert wrote:
i don't think everything we do is pre-determined - my own path is about personal responsibility. I'M responsible for what i do, think, say, not anyone else. some things i have control over, some i don't. but i don't go round blaming Life, God, the Universe, Great Spirit, Karma, Fate - whatever you want to call it - for everything (good or bad) that happens to me. i do not believe there are good or bad people - in fact, i don't believe in Good and Evil at all. it goes against both my personal responsibility stance, and against the whole idea of actions, thoughts and words having intent and will behind them. there is no such thing as a "bad" deed/action, for example, only one which is inappropriate as far as right time, right place and right person is concerned. and i know i'll be jumped on and yelled at that Hitler's actions were bad, bad, bad, and of course they were horrific, but i'm not going to go into that right now. what i mean is... chopping off someone's leg is not "bad" if they've got gangrene. it's about intent and will, and context. nothing is that black and white, most of the time.


I agree 100% - nothing is pre-determined, and our paths are our own responsibility...... But the forks we choose in those paths will always be driven by our innate nature, greatly reducing the forks we can, in reality, take, whether we like it or not...... We all have our own personal senses of "right" and "wrong" that drive these choices, but these are indeed not universal, and vary from person to person based purely on nurture/nature..... I too agree that there is no global good or evil...... Hitler's actions were thoroughly "good" within his own belief system, but "bad" to most others'..... I think societal "good" and "evil" on which our various laws and moral codes are based are merely an averaging out of the general populus's internal systems. They simply aren't universal constructs by any means.

(I do think that "fate" deserves a right good kicking though, sometimes... :wink:)

vetivert wrote:
and i may as well get it over with and say it now - i've heard all the eulogies about Pope John Paul II (you couldn't excape it last night), and i'm going to get my tuppence ha'penny in now.


Pope John Paul II was a dangerous fanatic running an evil system that ruined countless numbers of lives in the name of power and greed alone. The only bad thing about his death is that someone just as bad will take over the same role in the not too distant future, changing nothing.....


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Bec
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03 Apr 2005, 6:13 pm

TAFKASH wrote:
Pope John Paul II was a dangerous fanatic running an evil system that ruined countless numbers of lives in the name of power and greed alone.


I completely disagree with you. Pope John Paul II was probably the best pope the Church has ever had. He fixed and apologised for a lot of the Chruch's screw ups over the years. (He also slammed the war in Iraq while Bush was sitting next to him...what a cool guy.) May he rest in peace.



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03 Apr 2005, 6:23 pm

It is further proof of God's omnipotence that he need not exist in order to save us
A


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TAFKASH
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03 Apr 2005, 7:48 pm

Bec wrote:
I completely disagree with you. Pope John Paul II was probably the best pope the Church has ever had. He fixed and apologised for a lot of the Chruch's screw ups over the years. (He also slammed the war in Iraq while Bush was sitting next to him...what a cool guy.) May he rest in peace.


So he was a slightly better brand of dangerous fanatic than others that came before him, with the keen and politically astute pragmatic sense necessary to make minor changes in dogma to try to sustain his dying, discredited and outdated old faith into the 21st Century..... The guy was still the leader, driver and figurehead of a huge, incredibly dangerous and basically evil global conspiracy........ The world is a better, safer place with one less of his kind in it.....

......and appearing reasonable, non-fascistic and peace loving compared to Bush is hardly a ringing endorsement of anyone now, is it? :?

Sarcastic_Name wrote:
I was too nervous to ask my pastor the questions, but he would have quoted the Bible (some of you don't believe it), as all pators would. I really don't know what to think right now, because some of you don't seem to understand the full meaning of Christianity. There are so many ideas that differ between Christian and Catholic. Once again, the line is being blurred.


I understand with startling clarity the full "meaning" of Christianity, to an extent that no Christian ever could...... (wood and trees kind of thing). And fundamentally, all flavours of Christianity are essentially the same, and you're kidding yourself by claiming otherwise - the leader of the Catholic church wears a dress, lives in a big Gothic cathedral, speaks in latin and is 300 years out of touch with reality, the leader of your church probably wears a suit, lives in a 70s prefab, speaks in a Southern US drawl (most likely) and is only 150 years or so out of touch..... Fundamentally though, they both just want your cash and your unthinking obedience - that is all any church wants from you or anybody else - the elaborateness of their stained-glass windows and size and design of their pipe-organs makes not a jot of difference.....

Sarcastic_Name wrote:
As for sinning, God knows you sin. All he wants is admittance of doing so and asking of forgiveness through the sacrafice of Jesus. You can't say that you've never done anything wrong, because everyone's lied before. Everyone has probably stolen something at one point in their life. Saying you've never done anything wrong before is wrong because you're human. That's all I have to say for now.


I've never "sinned" because I believe that "sin" is a human construct, and I refuse to accept its existence as an omnipotent, deity-assessable axiom of the universe - I have only ever "sinned" in ways that were right and/or acceptable to my internal, personal moral compass at the time, and so cannot be considered "sins" as far as I am concerned.

....and nobody has ever yet, after all these years and all those countless attempts, ever managed to come up with a cogent reason as to why some hippy getting stapled to a tree 2000 years ago is supposed to make a jot of difference to the price of sugar-free pop tarts where an individual's "sin" assessment is concerned..... Jesus died....... fine...... SO FLIPPIN' WHAT????? :?


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03 Apr 2005, 8:25 pm

Ummm......TAFKASH..... I don't care about the comments made about the pope......but have you ever been to a church before?


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03 Apr 2005, 8:33 pm

TAFKASH wrote:
1PeaceMaker wrote:
All possible choices are available. You have multiple futures, as physics seems to be revealing. So your life is what you make of it. In some ways, it is like "Gorundhog Day" on a very much larger scale. Your life is your choice, as physics reveals.


I disagree yet again. I will state it again for the nth time: We have no control over how our personalities are formed. None. Zero. Nada. Zilch. Diddly-squat.


Why?

..You do not appear to be taking into account the fact that we are timeless, unified beings, given the laws of entaglement, that is, as well as other facets of physics that point in that direction.

In other words, I chose to be born from the beginning of time. I am more than flesh and bones. What's more, I don't really care if you want to argue that we are not free.. One thing always causes another, which means that something did cause my choice, and whatever that was was caused by something else, et. cetera.. anyways, it's all beside the point to me, because if I am not in charge of who I am, than neither is God, after all, whatever makes him what he is leaves him without free will either.. Anyway, SO WHAT?

In the end, we are all the sons of God, and if we have lived a regrettable life, we will regret it, and that is that. We cannot regret being who we are, but we can regret acting in ways that make no sense, even given who we are.

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We develop into the characters we are due to forces completely beyond our control. I can not alter the kind of person that I am, neither can you or anybody else.


Ah, but sentiant beings can alter who they are. If you educate yourself, you can become a lawyer, for instance. Can you do anything and everything? I am not saying that, but you and I can make all the choices we need to in order to derive satisfaction in life. I went from being single, to being a married mother. I made choices I will not regret. And I will make more. In the end, I will look back on my life and see I made the best choices I could, given the available information... at least most of the time. We are dancing around something outside the scope of this conversation. I have to be hasty, so as not to waste too much time, lol.
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The "choices" we make in life are completely ring-fenced and circumscribed by the kinds of people we are, and the kinds of personalities we have. If there is a correct "path" to godliness or whatever, some people have ready-made personalities to slot right into it with no effort.


I aint no "fundy" - so if you mean "Fundy" brand salvation, can't help ya, you're toast. In my universe parents and child, nature and nurture mold a man's future, but all of us have plenty of opportunities to make the most of what we have. And, in one universe or another, we will take that chance, and make the most of ourselves.

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Other people have personalities which will completely preclude them from doing so. It is hardly fair to judge these people by the same criteria....... You wouldn't criticise somebody with no legs for losing a race to an able bodied athlete..... Why then would you harshly judge someone with a naturally "bad" personality for making bad "choices" when they are naturally predisposed to do so, due to forces completely beyond their control..... You can no more equitably send an "evil" person to hell for being "evil" than you can send a sprinter with no legs to hell for losing lots of races - its that simple..... There is no possible equitable way for a deity to allocate after-life punishment to people based on life choices.... There simply isn't..... End of story.....


I agree. I don't believe that is the way the afterlife works. The juddgement is the chance for you to see if you made an *ss of yourself or not. If you did, back to square one, humiliation and all. Our punishment is our loss of dignity in the face of stupidity.. and not the kind you inherit.

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1PeaceMaker wrote:
I am not saying I completelsy understand the mathmatical part of the physics involved, (yet) but my point is stlll there. You are a free will agent, because you don't just exist now, you also exist in timelessness, and much is open to you. Science is starting to show us that we are more than what we are used to measuring and counting as belongs to us.. There are powers that belong to us existing in what sciences like to call "hyperspace".


I'm not going to argue quark, strangeness and charm on this topic, sadly :wink: It is a demonstrable fact that we have no say over how our lives develop, irrespective of kinks in the time space continuum or whatever....... Endless possibilities may be open to us at every turn, but our innate nature will always exclude the "choice" of the vast majority of these "choices", and inevitably force us to have to select from an, in reality, very small subset of these "choices"..... This fact cannot be argued against, and I'm a little puzzled as to why so many people on this thread are lobbying against this very clear and obvious point.... :?


Because you are not looking at the 11th dimention, the bulk, hyperspace, or any othe these variable factors when you say this stuff. Fact is, there IS more than meets the eye. And I also think wwe are talking past each other a little. hehehe..

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1PeaceMaker wrote:
There is a God, because ultimately the entire unerverse is woven together in a mass conciousness, in accordence with the laws of thermodynamics that Progogine showed us. We live an exist in a highly complex, organized dissapative structure called "God" "Love" "Allah" Or whateve else, but a rose is a rose, regardless of the name, and in the end, everything finds its place.


.....and you were doing so well, too..... :lol: The laws of thermodynamics prove there is a God then, eh? Somehow I think not...... :wink: This is a blind, logical leap of faith from science to the absurd and I'm sure you know it deep down, really.... No offence.... :)


What? Don't you know what an organised, dissipative structure is? 8O :P



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03 Apr 2005, 8:41 pm

Glenn,

Most Christians do disagree with me, but I do think that what I believe is more Biblical than what many believe. Most people are traditianal and have hijacked Christianity, from my perspective.

I have studied the Bible with total commitment for years, so I feel I have a good grasp of the content of the message, even though I can still learn much more, if I like.



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03 Apr 2005, 8:55 pm

I'm Christian, and I disagree completely with 1PeaceMaker. Most of what you say is scientific, and out of no where you mention the Bible.

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Most people are traditianal and have hijacked Christianity, from my perspective.
Are you sure it's not the other way around?


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04 Apr 2005, 1:29 am

1PeaceMaker wrote:
In the end, we are all the sons of God


I'M bloody not. i'm not a "Son" of anyone, thank you. and i have the chromosomes to prove it. bloody cheek.



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04 Apr 2005, 1:51 pm

Please see the 'should this topic be locked' thread in general forum before making further posts on this thread please. Thank you...


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ed
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04 Apr 2005, 6:49 pm

I'm not even going to bother with the "is there a God" issue - i have enough trouble just trying to stay afloat without wasting brain cells on that issue.

I have a lot of comments about the Roman Catholic Church, however. Basically it has been the greatest force of evil in this world over the last 2000 years. They did eliminate the Coptyc Christians, as has been pointed out before. They were the force behind the Crusades. They created the Black Death by decreeing that cats were evil and should be destroyed, wiping out the rats' only predator. The Spanish Inquisition was their idea. Forgiveness for sins was available at a price.

For the present, Vetivert said it best:

"i cannot grieve for a man who caused untold misery in his conservative, traditionalist stance on matters such as abortion, contraception, and the role of women - thousands, if not millions of people have suffered and will suffer because he said condoms were verboten, and the spread of HIV infection and AIDS has escalated wildly."

Add to that the Roman Catholic Church even interfered in our elections, telling good, God-fearing Catholics that a vote for anyone who did not oppose abortion was a sin.

This is God's representative on Earth??? No, this is an evil conspiracy that must be stopped if the Human species hopes to survive much longer.



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04 Apr 2005, 8:06 pm

I have a lot of restecp (If I may quote Ali G) for catholicism, even though I'm not one. I think the seven deadlies is a brilliant summary of how people's lives go fiendlishly wrong.

I like the fact that catholicism is an unchanging faith, in contrast to others faiths that run around trying to 'give the people what they want', - since what people want will always change, they will always be faiths in flux. So those changing faiths find their certainties, their unchangingness in the bible, which I think is being referred to in this debate as 'fundamentalism'. Catholicism has it's own fundamentalisms which are its sacraments, traditions etc.

I think when people refer to past eras and catholicism, they forget how short life was in those days, and how much the stench of death and disease would have been all around one, and in those circumstances, a faith in a divinity would have been very important to many. In our modern antiseptic era, it's much easier to shrug off any need for a divinity or a faith, or to go for a 'lite' faith or faithlessness, or to tranfer their need for faith to a faith in science or faith in sex or faith in fame/money, anything you believe will 'save' you and deliver you to a 'better' place is a faith.



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04 Apr 2005, 10:36 pm

ed said:

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This is God's representative on Earth??? No, this is an evil conspiracy that must be stopped if the Human species hopes to survive much longer.


Please don't forget that Catholics aren't the only ones who believe in God and claim to represent him. I don't know much about the pope, other than the bible contradiction that is his existence. That's all for now, my spring break is over, so I won't be able to post as often.


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ed
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05 Apr 2005, 10:03 am

My post is not meant as a condemnation of Catholics. My problem is with the Roman Catholic Church itself, not the people who follow that faith.



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05 Apr 2005, 1:54 pm

Sarcastic_name,

I have studied the Bible for years, as though my life depended upon it. I do understand I see things differently, and I also know that I did not put a bunch of scripture in here, but I am quite capable of verse by verse debate over any portion of the Bible. Are you?

I have chosen a less Bible-verse peppered format of my beliefs for the many people who prefer science and logic. And I also am a science junkie, so that wasn't hard for mme at all.

Vetivert,

Pardon me, madame. :wink:

Our spirits do not have a sex, but I think you get my point, anyhow.

[Are your really being pedantic (no offence), or are you just playing with me, as I suspect?]



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05 Apr 2005, 2:26 pm

i have a major problem (being a feminist) with the whole "Man" when people mean "humans" (i.e. including women) thing. however, in the true spirit of christianity, i shall forgive you. (and you don't even have to say 10 hail marys).

and postperson - the seven deadlies? good grief - where on earth would i be without lust and gluttony...? have to have some pleasures in life...