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1PeaceMaker
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03 Apr 2005, 8:41 pm

Glenn,

Most Christians do disagree with me, but I do think that what I believe is more Biblical than what many believe. Most people are traditianal and have hijacked Christianity, from my perspective.

I have studied the Bible with total commitment for years, so I feel I have a good grasp of the content of the message, even though I can still learn much more, if I like.



Sarcastic_Name
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03 Apr 2005, 8:55 pm

I'm Christian, and I disagree completely with 1PeaceMaker. Most of what you say is scientific, and out of no where you mention the Bible.

Quote:
Most people are traditianal and have hijacked Christianity, from my perspective.
Are you sure it's not the other way around?


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vetivert
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04 Apr 2005, 1:29 am

1PeaceMaker wrote:
In the end, we are all the sons of God


I'M bloody not. i'm not a "Son" of anyone, thank you. and i have the chromosomes to prove it. bloody cheek.



duncvis
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04 Apr 2005, 1:51 pm

Please see the 'should this topic be locked' thread in general forum before making further posts on this thread please. Thank you...


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ed
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04 Apr 2005, 6:49 pm

I'm not even going to bother with the "is there a God" issue - i have enough trouble just trying to stay afloat without wasting brain cells on that issue.

I have a lot of comments about the Roman Catholic Church, however. Basically it has been the greatest force of evil in this world over the last 2000 years. They did eliminate the Coptyc Christians, as has been pointed out before. They were the force behind the Crusades. They created the Black Death by decreeing that cats were evil and should be destroyed, wiping out the rats' only predator. The Spanish Inquisition was their idea. Forgiveness for sins was available at a price.

For the present, Vetivert said it best:

"i cannot grieve for a man who caused untold misery in his conservative, traditionalist stance on matters such as abortion, contraception, and the role of women - thousands, if not millions of people have suffered and will suffer because he said condoms were verboten, and the spread of HIV infection and AIDS has escalated wildly."

Add to that the Roman Catholic Church even interfered in our elections, telling good, God-fearing Catholics that a vote for anyone who did not oppose abortion was a sin.

This is God's representative on Earth??? No, this is an evil conspiracy that must be stopped if the Human species hopes to survive much longer.



Postperson
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04 Apr 2005, 8:06 pm

I have a lot of restecp (If I may quote Ali G) for catholicism, even though I'm not one. I think the seven deadlies is a brilliant summary of how people's lives go fiendlishly wrong.

I like the fact that catholicism is an unchanging faith, in contrast to others faiths that run around trying to 'give the people what they want', - since what people want will always change, they will always be faiths in flux. So those changing faiths find their certainties, their unchangingness in the bible, which I think is being referred to in this debate as 'fundamentalism'. Catholicism has it's own fundamentalisms which are its sacraments, traditions etc.

I think when people refer to past eras and catholicism, they forget how short life was in those days, and how much the stench of death and disease would have been all around one, and in those circumstances, a faith in a divinity would have been very important to many. In our modern antiseptic era, it's much easier to shrug off any need for a divinity or a faith, or to go for a 'lite' faith or faithlessness, or to tranfer their need for faith to a faith in science or faith in sex or faith in fame/money, anything you believe will 'save' you and deliver you to a 'better' place is a faith.



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04 Apr 2005, 10:36 pm

ed said:

Quote:
This is God's representative on Earth??? No, this is an evil conspiracy that must be stopped if the Human species hopes to survive much longer.


Please don't forget that Catholics aren't the only ones who believe in God and claim to represent him. I don't know much about the pope, other than the bible contradiction that is his existence. That's all for now, my spring break is over, so I won't be able to post as often.


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ed
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05 Apr 2005, 10:03 am

My post is not meant as a condemnation of Catholics. My problem is with the Roman Catholic Church itself, not the people who follow that faith.



1PeaceMaker
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05 Apr 2005, 1:54 pm

Sarcastic_name,

I have studied the Bible for years, as though my life depended upon it. I do understand I see things differently, and I also know that I did not put a bunch of scripture in here, but I am quite capable of verse by verse debate over any portion of the Bible. Are you?

I have chosen a less Bible-verse peppered format of my beliefs for the many people who prefer science and logic. And I also am a science junkie, so that wasn't hard for mme at all.

Vetivert,

Pardon me, madame. :wink:

Our spirits do not have a sex, but I think you get my point, anyhow.

[Are your really being pedantic (no offence), or are you just playing with me, as I suspect?]



vetivert
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05 Apr 2005, 2:26 pm

i have a major problem (being a feminist) with the whole "Man" when people mean "humans" (i.e. including women) thing. however, in the true spirit of christianity, i shall forgive you. (and you don't even have to say 10 hail marys).

and postperson - the seven deadlies? good grief - where on earth would i be without lust and gluttony...? have to have some pleasures in life...



1PeaceMaker
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05 Apr 2005, 3:32 pm

vetivert wrote:
i have a major problem (being a feminist) with the whole "Man" when people mean "humans" (i.e. including women) thing. however, in the true spirit of christianity, i shall forgive you. (and you don't even have to say 10 hail marys).

and postperson - the seven deadlies? good grief - where on earth would i be without lust and gluttony...? have to have some pleasures in life...


We have a strange language to work with. Sorry you didn't like my usage of it. I am not a Biggot, though, I am a woman, but our spirits are gender neutral, so why does it matter?



neotopian
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29 Apr 2005, 11:28 am

Right!

I haven't been around WP for a while and came to this thread after seeing the "should it be locked?" thread.

I think that trying to see religion from a different perspective may be enlightening.

First off I am an atheist (though why I need a special word for not believing in something is beyond me, I mean I dont believe in the tooth fairy either)

Religion (of whatever flavour) is a Meme or more often a collection of interconnected memes, a memeplex.

A meme is perhaps best thought of as a social protocol, a way in which people have (though not conciously) agreed to interact.

Language is one of the easiest to spot. I say "chair" and everyone (who spaeks english) understands what I mean, it saves a lot of time pointing at chairs in an effort to get my meaning accross.
The example given ealier in this thread of the woman who cut the end from the roast is a perfect example of meme transmission.
She copied what her mother did, though didn't see the reason.

Memes are learnt.
We can change our memes, but only by learning new ones.

we learn our language, the way to cook, or to enjoy salsa music and how to behave from the people around us. Our parents speak english so we learn english, the community in which we live all enjoy salsa music, we learn to enjoy salsa.

Memes also help a society to cohere, anyone who disobeys them gets shunned and excluded, those who obey get prasied and rewarded.

If we for one moment see religion as something constucted we can begin to understand its power.

A tribal society needs a language to speak and rules to live by. and these rules need to be understood by everyone.

First off simple rules emerge, "dont kill people" is fairly basic. Other rules emerge, "respect those in Authority" is fairly good for a society in which unrestrained inventiveness can be dangerous. (dont decide to wander off picking flowers if you've been told to stand guard against attack).

But to teach these rules stories develop, they may be true, or stories of spirits, gods, demons, or they may be parables.

These stories teach those of any society how to behave toward one another, the teaching of memes.

But some one has to know all these stories, so we have a preist, vicar, ju-ju man, wise man etc etc.

And yes there is power in being part of that preisthood, you get to make moral descisions whenever something new turns up, some circumstance that simply isn't covered by what has gone before.

And yes sometimes that power can grow too far, and as time goes on the complex of interrelated memes, the memeplex changes, sometimes through adding to it, some times through some things being taken out, or often through a change of emphasis of which parts are given importance., which stories are told.
BUT those that are in the preisthood do honestly belive in the memes, their actions are from that belief, that devotion to the meme and not (in my opinion) from a vast conspiracy in order to maintain the wealth and power.

To try and change a memeplex rather than for it to evolve, can be tricky as each part grows to be dependant on the others, each meme becoming entangled with the others. (the "be good", "obey authourity" and "get to heaven" memes are all linked).

And heres the thing..........

Memes survive!

Memes keep going long after there purpose is no longer needed.

example:

In the UK the descision to go fully metric was taken back in the 60's, but the weather forcasts here often still give the temperature in farenheit, DIY materials are sold by the inch yard and foot, beer by the pint, and road distance given in miles.

Think of all the hassle that has to be gone through when Internet protocols get changed, all the software that has to be updated and changed, and thats after the long period of discussion to even agree the bloody things.

Cutting the end off the roast even when you have a bigger pan.



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14 Aug 2005, 1:13 am

I felt like bringing this thread back, mostly for nostalgia. If anyone wishes to continue the debate, go ahead. I explain somewhere in here the difference between Catholic and Christian too. Hmm, I guess I've always been wary about the two getting mixed up. I still haven't re-read it all yet though, so if you're going to bring back the debate it'll be a while until I reply to anything of mine you quote. I have a busy weekday life, but I might have Monday off. Hmmm...


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rumio
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14 Aug 2005, 7:36 am

I'd not seen this thread as it dates from before my time but I just spent about 2 hours reading through it. Hard to pull together a reply given the ground that's already been covered so this will probably be a selection of thoughts around the subject (which went pretty much away from the original post as far as I can see, which was about AS and fundamentalism rather than religion generally).

It's interesting to me as I've had a longstanding interest in spirituality/religion/faith whatever you want to call it which has taken me from drug-induced psychedelia/Castaneda type stuff, through Buddhism, vague flirtations with what tends to be called 'shamanism' and various other bits and bobs, (not to mention my relationship to Art which at times has been quasi-religious as well), to my current position which is Islam from the traditional perspective of sufism, all this over the course of about 25 years. It's pretty obvious that most of the debates on this sort of subject on WP focus on Christianity and in actual fact I've never been a Christian, not even come close.

It's a very personal thing isn't it but in light of discovering Asperger's I've had cause to ponder about my spiritual bent ie what if it's just an 'obsession' and any spiritual enthusiasms and states of mind I've experienced are just a product of my brain structure and don't really mean anything at the end of the day. There are certainly lots of questions about faith that are very hard to answer, and for sure Islam has it's fair share of those but like I say, it's a personal thing but I actually am very glad that there is stuff that we don't know about. I think it would be horrible to live in a world that was 'logical' and completely explainable by 'science' down to the last particle, I can't think of much worse to be honest, I love mystery, I love imagination, I love the sense that there is far more going on than I can ever hope to be able to 'understand' with my limited faculties. I experience the world, and myself, as very claustrophobic and if there is a path that will take me to a place of freedom where I can let my mind go where it wants and there are no restrictions then that's the path for me. I'm not opposed to rationality, far from it, I'm not opposed to science, I just think they have limitations. There may be no way of proving that but personally that doesn't bother me very much, I've learned to follow my heart and make my own judgements and I'm pretty much okay with where it's got me.

Anyway, on the subject of logic it seems to have been taken for granted on this thread that it is illogical to believe in God. Now I'm going on a bit of a limb maybe as I'm certainly not a great debater when it comes to stuff like this but I'm willing to bet (except I don't gamble either!) that a good theologian could make out a strong case for the opposite being true and showing that actually the only possible answer is that God exists. Buddhism often seems to win a few brownie points with people for being some sort of 'rational' religion but the Buddha never explained where the universe came from. (By the way, I've mentioned this before but if anyone is looking for Famous Religious Figures From the Past Who Might Have Had AS then I reckon the Buddha has to be top of the list). He actually refused to answer that question whenever it was asked of him, he said it was an 'unanawerable question' and recommended that people didn't waste their time thinking about it. Which is odd given that Buddhism is founded on the Buddha's 'discovery' of dependent origination ie everything arises in dependence upon conditions. So what was the first condition? not to mention the one before that, and the one...

which is also a question for the anti-religionists - where did we come from? where did the universe come from? I've never heard anybody answer that question. What is life? will scientists ever be able to create new life? the odds on life happening were so mind-bogglingly small, I mean really, really, really small, not like winning the lottery or something and yet here we are. Which is an important question actually because if we are here because God created us then the only appropriate response is gratitude for the opportunities and gifts we've been given. As to why God would have created the universe and given us all these problems to figure out there's a saying in Islam that God was asked why He'd created the world and He said 'I was a secret treasure and I wished to be known'. That's our purpose, to know God, that's all He wants really, a bit of recognition!


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14 Aug 2005, 10:44 pm

I wish this were a sticky thread, just so people would know what a good debate looks like.


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