Why do so many people think that abortion is acceptable?

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wilburforce
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08 Nov 2015, 2:57 pm

CockneyRebel wrote:
I also think that all women should be able to take free self-defense classes from an early age, so that they'd be able to fend off and shock such snakes who wish to force their desires on them. I also feel that once someone rapes someone else, they should be locked up in maximum confinement for life.


I was physically ill when I was raped, and wouldn't have been able to fight him off even if I had years of training because I couldn't stand or walk or move without throwing up because of the fever I had. You can't tell me I should have to carry a baby for 9 months and birth it because of that, you have NO RIGHT to tell someone what they should have to do with their body when they have already been raped.



CockneyRebel
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08 Nov 2015, 3:01 pm

I'm done with this thread. It just keeps going around in circles.


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wilburforce
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08 Nov 2015, 3:06 pm

CockneyRebel wrote:
I'm done with this thread. It just keeps going around in circles.


Good, because I really don't appreciate being told how immoral I am for how I would have dealt with my rape if I had ended up being pregnant from it. I am not the immoral one who might have made me pregnant when I dindn't want to be pregnant--MY RAPIST IS THE IMMORAL ONE, I WAS JUST DEALING WITH THE FALLOUT HE LEFT ME WITH.

So yeah, bye Mr. Judgy McJudgerton.



Mikah
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08 Nov 2015, 3:38 pm

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Why do so many people think forcing rape victims to give birth as acceptable regardless of the mental and emotional trauma the woman has been through? Let us not forget incest as well.


In a sentence, because two wrongs don't make a right. But as I said before we keep jumping to extremes unnecessarily, cases like these are the tiny minority of abortions carried out today. Even if abortion in cases of rape is justified, that doesn't automatically mean all other reasons to abort are morally equivalent.


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08 Nov 2015, 4:33 pm

Mikah wrote:
I will ignore for now the strict definition of parasite. Being bodily dependent on your mother is a part of the human life cycle, usually extending beyond birth in the form of breastfeeding. Prematurely severing that dependence and seeing if the baby can survive is not a satisfactory definition of the beginning of human life. It's saying "if I do this and you survive you were alive all along, if I do this and you die, you were never really alive." If you never did this thing in the first place, it wouldn't even be an issue and from there how would you go about defining the beginning of life?

As an aside, are parasites really alive? If you remove one, and it cannot live independently of you and it dies, was it never really alive? Being able to survive independently of the body of another life form, same species or not, doesn't seem to be a rigid or sensible starting point for defining life in general, let alone where it begins.

You also imply that bodily dependence is so very much different from any other kind of dependence. I'm not saying it's exactly the same but I struggle to view it as a sacrosanct. If you were to try to define the beginning human life as a more general independence from other humans, no one would ever really be alive.


Just to point out the argument you present would seem to be inconsistent with your earlier argument,

Mikah wrote:
I was careful with how I worded it. A sperm or an egg alone cannot be or become an individual human being


This would indeed apply to a fertilized egg. It is fully dependent upon another distinct organism for its survival, but even more so, it is fully dependent upon that organism to develop from a single celled egg (which is not a human being yet) to something that all of us can agree is a human being (say, some point where it is viable).

Also, parasites are indeed considered alive. It might help to remind you that any animal which eats another organism is also dependent upon another organism's body for survival. Parasites have simply found an exceedingly lazy way to go about it.


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08 Nov 2015, 4:54 pm

CockneyRebel wrote:
Life begins at conception.


And the sun orbits the Earth, amirite?



Mikah
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08 Nov 2015, 5:24 pm

Edenthiel wrote:
Just to point out the argument you present would seem to be inconsistent with your earlier argument,

Mikah wrote:
I was careful with how I worded it. A sperm or an egg alone cannot be or become an individual human being


Alone in this instance just meant "without its counterpart, the sperm or the egg" not "in a vacuum".

Edenthiel wrote:
Also, parasites are indeed considered alive. It might help to remind you that any animal which eats another organism is also dependent upon another organism's body for survival. Parasites have simply found an exceedingly lazy way to go about it.


All very interesting, but it doesn't hurt the point I made, all I wished to do with the parasite remark was point out the viability definition of the beginning of human life is flawed. No one has yet suggested that animals who need to feed on other organisms in the more traditional sense to survive are not alive.


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wilburforce
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08 Nov 2015, 5:55 pm

Mikah wrote:
Edenthiel wrote:
Just to point out the argument you present would seem to be inconsistent with your earlier argument,

Mikah wrote:
I was careful with how I worded it. A sperm or an egg alone cannot be or become an individual human being


Alone in this instance just meant "without its counterpart, the sperm or the egg" not "in a vacuum".

Edenthiel wrote:
Also, parasites are indeed considered alive. It might help to remind you that any animal which eats another organism is also dependent upon another organism's body for survival. Parasites have simply found an exceedingly lazy way to go about it.


All very interesting, but it doesn't hurt the point I made, all I wished to do with the parasite remark was point out the viability definition of the beginning of human life is flawed. No one has yet suggested that animals who need to feed on other organisms in the more traditional sense to survive are not alive.


Until you have a working womb and need to think about these things from a real personal and informed perspective rather than an uninformed perspective, your opinion is irrelevant, thankfully. It's not your womb so it's not your choice, as much as you hate the biology that makes that the case. The laws will never again be on your side in any sane country. Women won't allow them to change, and we have more political power than we've ever had in the past, so get used to it. Abortion isn't going anywhere, so arguing against it is so pointless and a waste of your time and energy.



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08 Nov 2015, 6:15 pm

I'm getting the feeling this conversation is no longer about debate, but rather one person simply arguing with any dissenter, telling them they are wrong.

I see nothing constructive left here and am not likely to check back.


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08 Nov 2015, 6:31 pm

Barchan wrote:
CockneyRebel wrote:
Life begins at conception.


And the sun orbits the Earth, amirite?


Oh, and I'm also Retarded, am I right?


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08 Nov 2015, 6:44 pm

And the sky is green and I look like Ray Davies.


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08 Nov 2015, 6:55 pm

wilburforce wrote:
CockneyRebel wrote:
I'm done with this thread. It just keeps going around in circles.


Good, because I really don't appreciate being told how immoral I am for how I would have dealt with my rape if I had ended up being pregnant from it. I am not the immoral one who might have made me pregnant when I dindn't want to be pregnant--MY RAPIST IS THE IMMORAL ONE, I WAS JUST DEALING WITH THE FALLOUT HE LEFT ME WITH.

So yeah, bye Mr. Judgy McJudgerton.


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Forums are for discussion, not validation of your opinions in a comfortable echo chamber.



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08 Nov 2015, 7:44 pm

wilburforce wrote:
CockneyRebel wrote:
I'm done with this thread. It just keeps going around in circles.


Good, because I really don't appreciate being told how immoral I am for how I would have dealt with my rape if I had ended up being pregnant from it. I am not the immoral one who might have made me pregnant when I dindn't want to be pregnant--MY RAPIST IS THE IMMORAL ONE, I WAS JUST DEALING WITH THE FALLOUT HE LEFT ME WITH.

So yeah, bye Mr. Judgy McJudgerton.


CockneyRebel is female.


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Mikah
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08 Nov 2015, 7:52 pm

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Until you have a working womb and need to think about these things from a real personal and informed perspective rather than an uninformed perspective, your opinion is irrelevant, thankfully.


I think I have already covered this. I don't need a womb or personal experience with abortion to be able to think about the morality of this topic. It's like saying, unless you have been murdered, committed a murder or held a murder victims hand in their last moments, your opinions on murder are irrelevant. If the experience of those who do grants them obviously superior, infallible morality and logic, let them state their opinions and blow me of out the water. I can take it, if I am shown to be wrong I will make a generous retreat and thank my opponent for educating me.

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The laws will never again be on your side in any sane country.


This is off topic but the cultural revolution of the 60s is what lead to the legalisation of all but unlimited abortion. There is no reason another cultural revolution will not occur and lead to its banning.

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Women won't allow them to change, and we have more political power than we've ever had in the past, so get used to it.


A certain type of woman. You infer that no woman could possibly share my opinion, you'd be wrong.

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Abortion isn't going anywhere, so arguing against it is so pointless and a waste of your time and energy.


If that's true there is no harm done in discussing it. It's my time to waste.


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08 Nov 2015, 9:13 pm

Tim_Tex wrote:
wilburforce wrote:
CockneyRebel wrote:
I'm done with this thread. It just keeps going around in circles.


Good, because I really don't appreciate being told how immoral I am for how I would have dealt with my rape if I had ended up being pregnant from it. I am not the immoral one who might have made me pregnant when I dindn't want to be pregnant--MY RAPIST IS THE IMMORAL ONE, I WAS JUST DEALING WITH THE FALLOUT HE LEFT ME WITH.

So yeah, bye Mr. Judgy McJudgerton.


CockneyRebel is female.
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Biologically, yes though I identify as male.


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Last edited by CockneyRebel on 08 Nov 2015, 9:33 pm, edited 1 time in total.