Does being male mean I can't have opinions about abortion?

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abacacus
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12 Nov 2012, 4:05 pm

robo37 wrote:
The exact definition of murder is probably written to only apply exclusively to illegal cases but there is no dening that there is a life being killed here, the heart starts to beat after 3 weeks and the organism starts to move under it's own accord as it's brain start's developing thought. Babies have been recorded trying to escape from the suction tube many of times, which is actually worse then being shot in the head as the baby starts being ripped apart alive. Even which this point aside it's still immoral on the basis that you're denying the baby the chance to life, look up Gianna Jessen (a failed abortion survivor) on YouTube for a powerful insight on the subject.

Going back to my origional point, if you look at the pictures you can see it's clearly human and well developed even after just a few weeks of pregnancy. So it may not be 'murder', but it definetly killing another human being.


You've failed to convince me. It's not a life being snuffed out, it's the potential for life being removed.

Kurgan wrote:
Abortion at three weeks is different than abortion at 24 weeks. The anti-choice or pro-infanticide guilds don't think so.


I agree with you. Barring scenarios such as danger to the mother, abortions should only be allowed early on in the pregnancy.


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12 Nov 2012, 4:07 pm

Kurgan wrote:
Shatbat wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
... a three week old fetus is not a human being anymore than an UML-diagram is a fully functional program.


:lmao:

Abortion = murder or abortion != murder? That's the question.


Abortion at three weeks is different than abortion at 24 weeks. The anti-choice or pro-infanticide guilds don't think so.


Why are those two different? I know they are, but I'd like to hear your reasoning behind it. At the 24th week the fetus has a 50%+ chance of survival outside the womb, is that what you're talking about?

There is definitely a slippery slope problem there.


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abacacus
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12 Nov 2012, 4:09 pm

Shatbat wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Shatbat wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
... a three week old fetus is not a human being anymore than an UML-diagram is a fully functional program.


:lmao:

Abortion = murder or abortion != murder? That's the question.


Abortion at three weeks is different than abortion at 24 weeks. The anti-choice or pro-infanticide guilds don't think so.


Why are those two different? I know they are, but I'd like to hear your reasoning behind it. At the 24th week the fetus has a 50%+ chance of survival outside the womb, is that what you're talking about?

There is definitely a slippery slope problem there.


I can't speak for him, but that's my view of it. At that point, there is a reasonable chance of survival if the foetus is removed intact, which is the option I think should be pursued from that point onward.


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12 Nov 2012, 4:16 pm

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robo37
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12 Nov 2012, 4:18 pm

Shatbat wrote:
robo37 wrote:
The exact definition of murder is probably written to only apply exclusively to illegal cases but there is no dening that there is a life being killed here, the heart starts to beat after 3 weeks and the organism starts to move under it's own accord as it's brain start's developing thought. Babies have been recorded trying to escape from the suction tube many of times, which is actually worse then being shot in the head as the baby starts being ripped apart alive. Even which this point aside it's still immoral on the basis that you're denying the baby the chance to life, look up Gianna Jessen (a failed abortion survivor) on YouTube for a powerful insight on the subject.

Going back to my origional point, if you look at the pictures you can see it's clearly human and well developed even after just a few weeks of pregnancy. So it may not be 'murder', but it definetly killing another human being.


The heart is an organ that makes blood flow around the body, no more, no less. A beating heart doesn't really mean anything.
A robot can move on it's own accord as well. It can also be equipped with sensors, and use that information to avoid danger. But the robot isn't truly alive. Even if a fetus tries to avoid the suction tube, it is more of an automated response than the fetus consciously trying to avoid it. Because the key conceptfor me is consciousness. If a fetus is not a sentient entity, then it won't feel joy, pain, dread, it won't feel anything because it's not yet able to. And in that case, the will of the mother, a conscious, fully developed human, prevails over the... not-will of a non-conscious human-to-be.

And if something looks physically human, it doesn't necessarily mean it is. Humanity comes from our brains.


Babies of less than 7 weeks have been seen to suck their thumbs for comfort. New born babies suck their thumbs too, and behave in simular ways. How is a 7 week baby not alive when a new born is? Arguing someone is a "fully developed human" is a flawed argument,, judges aren't going to side with "a fully developed human" over someone with low functioning autism, regardless of their capablity to think they still have the right to life and although undeveloped babies clearly won't have the ability to understand what's going on they should still have the same right to life.

How human something one the outside is a good indication of how human someone is on the inside. If the human body is well developed then the brain will likey have a degree of consciousness (again indicated by the thumb sucking) as the brain becomes developed.



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12 Nov 2012, 4:52 pm

Shatbat wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
Shatbat wrote:
Kurgan wrote:
... a three week old fetus is not a human being anymore than an UML-diagram is a fully functional program.


:lmao:

Abortion = murder or abortion != murder? That's the question.


Abortion at three weeks is different than abortion at 24 weeks. The anti-choice or pro-infanticide guilds don't think so.


Why are those two different? I know they are, but I'd like to hear your reasoning behind it. At the 24th week the fetus has a 50%+ chance of survival outside the womb, is that what you're talking about?

There is definitely a slippery slope problem there.


A fetus at 24 weeks have voluntary movements, a conscious mind and can recognize the mother's voice. A child born at 21 weeks and 5 days in 1987, grew up to be a normal guy with a college degree.

A UML class diagram shows the outline of the classes and the relationship between them.



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12 Nov 2012, 4:54 pm

robo37 wrote:
Babies of less than 7 weeks have been seen to suck their thumbs for comfort. New born babies suck their thumbs too, and behave in simular ways. How is a 7 week baby not alive when a new born is? Arguing someone is a "fully developed human" is a flawed argument,, judges aren't going to side with "a fully developed human" over someone with low functioning autism, regardless of their capablity to think they still have the right to life and although undeveloped babies clearly won't have the ability to understand what's going on they should still have the same right to life.

How human something one the outside is a good indication of how human someone is on the inside. If the human body is well developed then the brain will likey have a degree of consciousness (again indicated by the thumb sucking) as the brain becomes developed.


Thumb sucking is a reflex act, it doesn't really mean anything. And I didn't really understand your 7 weeks argument, did you mean a 7 weeks embryo? In that case, thumb-sucking would definitely be a purely reflex act, and a 7 weeks embryo is certainly not developed enough to feel comfort. And I'm not talking about babies in the early stage of consciousness where they don't have the ability to clearly understand something, I'm talking about embryos or fetuses who don't have any ability to understand anything at all.

How human something is on the outside is a, you put it, indicator of how it is on the inside. But why use an indicator when we can study the brain itself, until the twenty-second week no higher brain activity can be detected (this doesn't necessarily mean that there is conscious thought here, but it does mean that before the 22nd week there isn't, period. And that's too long to wait for an abortion anyway) A 7 week embryo's brain is little more than a non-functioning bulge.


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12 Nov 2012, 5:58 pm

Shatbat wrote:
Thumb sucking is a reflex act, it doesn't really mean anything. And I didn't really understand your 7 weeks argument, did you mean a 7 weeks embryo? In that case, thumb-sucking would definitely be a purely reflex act, and a 7 weeks embryo is certainly not developed enough to feel comfort. And I'm not talking about babies in the early stage of consciousness where they don't have the ability to clearly understand something, I'm talking about embryos or fetuses who don't have any ability to understand anything at all.

How human something is on the outside is a, you put it, indicator of how it is on the inside. But why use an indicator when we can study the brain itself, until the twenty-second week no higher brain activity can be detected (this doesn't necessarily mean that there is conscious thought here, but it does mean that before the 22nd week there isn't, period. And that's too long to wait for an abortion anyway) A 7 week embryo's brain is little more than a non-functioning bulge.


I am not sure how you seem to think there is no higher brain activity at this stage, there has to be some brain activity for the baby to be able to suck it's thumb, and there is no such thing as a machine that meseaures how high the functionality brain ways are. How do you know the brain doesn't become active before the 22nd week? 7 week babies do have brains with cerebrums which are the parts that give use advanced thought. If this part is developing a long with the other parts of the brain such as the rear parts that give the baby instincts such as sucking it's thumb (which is too advanced to be a simple reflex action) it could easily be capable of at least self awareness.



Last edited by robo37 on 12 Nov 2012, 6:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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12 Nov 2012, 6:13 pm

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AvF1Q3UidWM[/youtube]


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12 Nov 2012, 6:21 pm

robo37 wrote:
I am not sure how you seem to think there is no higher brain activity at this stage, there has to be some brain activity for the baby to be able to suck it's thumb, and there is no such thing as a machine that meseaures how high the functionality brain ways are. How do you know the brain doesn't become active before the 22nd week? 7 week babies do have brains with cerebrums which are the parts that give use advanced thought. If this part is developing a long with the other parts of the brain such as the rear parts that give the baby instincts such as sucking it's thumb (which is too advanced to be a simple reflex action) it could easily be capable of at least self awareness.


Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and a neonatal electroencephalographic patterns, studies of cerebral metabolism, and the behavioral development of neonates. First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks.

Source: http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/anand/

Whatever makes babies suck their thumbs, is defnitely not located in the cerebral cortex. I'm curious to know why do you say it's too advanced, and how 9 week fetuses (couldn't find a 7 week source, but I did find a 9 week one) can do it.


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12 Nov 2012, 6:32 pm

Shatbat wrote:
robo37 wrote:
I am not sure how you seem to think there is no higher brain activity at this stage, there has to be some brain activity for the baby to be able to suck it's thumb, and there is no such thing as a machine that meseaures how high the functionality brain ways are. How do you know the brain doesn't become active before the 22nd week? 7 week babies do have brains with cerebrums which are the parts that give use advanced thought. If this part is developing a long with the other parts of the brain such as the rear parts that give the baby instincts such as sucking it's thumb (which is too advanced to be a simple reflex action) it could easily be capable of at least self awareness.


Functional maturity of the cerebral cortex is suggested by fetal and a neonatal electroencephalographic patterns, studies of cerebral metabolism, and the behavioral development of neonates. First, intermittent electroencephalograpic bursts in both cerebral hemispheres are first seen at 20 weeks gestation; they become sustained at 22 weeks and bilaterally synchronous at 26 to 27 weeks.

Source: http://www.cirp.org/library/pain/anand/


Except babies are still seen to have been thinking for themselves at 16 weeks, as babies usually figure out by themselves that they can stop light from hurting their eyes by covering them with their hands by the 16th week, so these electroencephalographic patterns must'nt be as much of an accurate indicater of complex thought as you think.

http://www.paternityangel.com/Preg_info ... ekly16.htm

(As I said the part that cause the thumb sucking is likely to be at the rear of the brain as it would be part of a natual instinct, there's a good picture at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:6_wee ... _brain.jpg)



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12 Nov 2012, 6:39 pm

I think the children have the right to the opinions.



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12 Nov 2012, 7:59 pm

I think everyone should be entitled to have an opinion on this matter but guys also need to be respectful that women really have the final say in this matter since it affects us a lot more.



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12 Nov 2012, 9:45 pm

robo37 wrote:
Babies of less than 7 weeks have been seen to suck their thumbs for comfort.

I have to wonder where you get your information. At 7 weeks, an embryo is just starting to form the paddle-like formations that will eventually become fingers. It is just starting to develop a mouth. It is only a half an inch long. It is the size of a blueberry - and, at that size, has doubled in size since the week before. Exactly how would an embryo of less than 7 weeks, that would not yet have developed the beginning of those finger/paddles at the ends of its arms, have been able to suck a thumb in the mouth it had not yet begun to form?

If you believe that human life begins at conception, that is your belief, and you are welcome to it. You are not welcome to your own facts, nor are you welcome to your own, inaccurate "science." Base your beliefs on your theology, not on lies, and don't try to mislead people with this kind of pseudo-science.



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12 Nov 2012, 11:38 pm

First, I got around watching AspieOtaku's video, and :lmao: It's really fun, unless you are one specific kind of pro-life, then I suppose it wouldn't be.

robo37 wrote:
Except babies are still seen to have been thinking for themselves at 16 weeks, as babies usually figure out by themselves that they can stop light from hurting their eyes by covering them with their hands by the 16th week, so these electroencephalographic patterns must'nt be as much of an accurate indicater of complex thought as you think.

http://www.paternityangel.com/Preg_info ... ekly16.htm

(As I said the part that cause the thumb sucking is likely to be at the rear of the brain as it would be part of a natual instinct, there's a good picture at http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:6_wee ... _brain.jpg)


Electroencephalograms are quite accurate as far as I know, they don't measure conscious thought, per se, but they do measure brain activity to a high degree of accuracy. And brain activity is a much, much better indicator of thought than how human-like something looks anyway.

It doesn't take complex thought to cover one's eyes from the light. A cockroach is able to avoid light by scuttling away. With appropriate hardware, a robot could do something similar with a few lines of code. Let's use your own source for a while:

Week 15 wrote:
Your baby begins to hear!
 
The surrounding amniotic liquid helps the external sounds to travel through from you to him/her.  It can hear mother's heart, stomach and especially the voice.  Some external sounds can also be heard.  
 
On the other hand, the brain is not yet mature enough to interpret this resonant information.


If the brain could suddenly process sensory input by the very next week, they should have mentioned it.

Week 23: The nerve cells are all in place now.  Soon they will begin to join together to form a full nervous system.
So by week 23 there isn't even a full nervous system yet. Conscious thought would require that, and more.

Week 30: The brain develops quickly now.
Would that mean that it hadn't been developing that much before that?

And if thumb-sucking is a natural instinct, then it's not the product of a conscious choice or anything.


Also, I guess it's as good a moment as any to actually talk about the thread topic :lol: Guys can have an opinion on abortion, yes. If I thought otherwise I wouldn't be here. If we take the trouble to inform ourselves and do our best to empathize, it is possible to have relevant opinions as well. Nothing beats the experience of actually having been pregnant, or actually experiencing an abortion, but we can strive to get close to it.

That does bring me one interrogant though, if we have a girl who has never been pregnant, is her opinion more relevant than a guy's, for the purposes of a discussion? And if it is, is it by much?


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13 Nov 2012, 12:22 am

Shatbat wrote:
First, I got around watching AspieOtaku's video, and :lmao: It's really fun, unless you are one specific kind of pro-life, then I suppose it wouldn't be.



Electroencephalograms are quite accurate as far as I know, they don't measure conscious thought, per se, but they do measure brain activity to a high degree of accuracy. And brain activity is a much, much better indicator of thought than how human-like something looks anyway.

It doesn't take complex thought to cover one's eyes from the light. A cockroach is able to avoid light by scuttling away. With appropriate hardware, a robot could do something similar with a few lines of code. Let's use your own source for a while:


There's a fundamental difference between understanding that your hand actually blocks light and just running away from the light just because your nerves tell you to do so. You can get a computer to calculate physics faster than any human can as well, with no more than a few lines worth of code. Does this mean that all humans are stupid and therefore deserve to be killed if their mother suddenly realizes she doesn't want children anyway?


Week 15 wrote:
 
On the other hand, the brain is not yet mature enough to interpret this resonant information.


Doesn't mean that the fetus doesn't have a consciousness.


Quote:
Week 23: The nerve cells are all in place now.  Soon they will begin to join together to form a full nervous system.
So by week 23 there isn't even a full nervous system yet. Conscious thought would require that, and more.


Kids have survived and lived normal lives as early as 21 weeks and 5 days. Consciousness doesn't suddenly decide to appear two and a half weeks after the child has been born.