Page 2 of 3 [ 40 posts ]  Go to page Previous  1, 2, 3  Next

BlueMax
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 27 Aug 2007
Age: 46
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,285

16 Nov 2012, 12:28 am

Oodain wrote:
Fnord wrote:

One more thing; microwave ovens are as dangerous as genetically-modified foods. In fact, both modified and unmodified foods are equally affected by microwaves -- their chemical compositions and molecular bonds are broken and re-formed during the cooking process. So why are their no ballot propositions to limit the sale and use of microwave ovens?


so depending on food everything from no harm to increased toxicity compared to a non modified food.

breaking and reforming chemical bonds is cooking, everything from the maillard reaction to making cheese.


Can't argue with that. Like I said before - bad foods like GMO's and chemicals like Aspartame are far more concerning than any dangers from a well-caged microwave oven.



Oodain
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Jan 2011
Age: 30
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,022
Location: in my own little tamarillo jungle,

16 Nov 2012, 8:19 am

what i am saying is that gmo's are NOT inherently dangerous, they are plants like anything else.

often they barely change anything and copy stuff already found in nature, all papaya's people eat are GMO and have been since the 80'ies, no issues there.
there are however a certain monsanto corn strain that shows increased liver toxicity and that is the only actual toxic feed plant i know to have come out of GMO.

those changes are often no different than the variations you already find between natural plants.

the whole point of all of these post is that there is none of the fields or questions brought up here that are universal, processed food can be no different from home made food, but many arent.

gmo crops have saved more people than anything else on earth(no really look it up, that is literally what they do), but they hold an inherent patent problem and there are a few plants that have had side effects, like the corn(which btw isnt used anymore as far as i know) for most plants however that is a non issue.

and as for the microwave, nature does far worse to people on a daily basis, we evolved to deal with it, one obviously shouldnt cook transplant blood but heat it in a regulated water bath.
the stupidity of people should not cause us to judge the tools they use but their faculties.


_________________
//through chaos comes complexity//

the scent of the tamarillo is pungent and powerfull,
woe be to the nose who nears it.


MrXxx
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 May 2010
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,760
Location: New England

16 Nov 2012, 9:01 am

Kenjuudo wrote:
Ever wondered why microwave ovens always have some sort of net on the door window? That functions like a Faraday cage. The Faraday cage will prevent the microwaves from escaping the oven. It's safe. Promise.


False. The cages do not keep all waves inside the oven.

Want proof? Turn on a transistor radio while standing several feet away from one while it's running, and tune the radio to AM (doesn't matter what frequency it's set at). Walk closer to the oven and listen. When you start hearing a buzz, that's EMF wave energy escaping from the oven being picked up by the radio.

Here's an idiotic "test" (kind of in "reverse") that supposedly proves the oven will keep electronics safe if stored inside the oven during a nuclear blast:

http://www.disasterguy.com/Downloads/El ... e_Oven.pdf

According to this guy, because the radio stops working inside the microwave (which is turned off by the way), that supposedly proves the microwave is safe to store electronics in during a nuclear blast. But there's a glaring problem with his test. Because it's the RADIO that quits working, it's the AM or FM waves that are being blocked. Those waves are far weaker than the EMF energy that would result from a nuclear blast. Plus, the waves from a nuclear blast would be all over the EMF spectrum, not just at certain frequencies.

Also, I just tried the same test on his site, with my cell phone, and it DID RING!! Why? Because I live very close to the nearest cell tower, so the signal here isn't as weak as it would be further away. And I am presuming that the signal I get here is very probably much weaker than the waves that would come from a nuclear blast. In other words, I just proved that even a weak signal can get through the Faraday cage.

Do the test the way I described, (with a radio from outside the oven, and the oven running ~ with something in it, of course, NEVER run a microwave oven empty!) and you'll be hearing EMF waves amplified by the radio from OUTSIDE the oven.

Now, if you think that it's just because the radio is amplifying the waves, and that means it's safe, keep this in mind. Transistor radios set to AM are tuned to filter out and not to accept anything but the frequency the tuner is set to, yet the wave is still getting through, no matter where the dial is set. That's only happening because the EMF signal is too strong for the radio to filter out. Now if the radio's circuitry can't filter it out, and your body has no filtering circuitry, what do you think is happening to those waves when you're standing that close to it?

They're passing straight through your body! Like it or not, if you have a microwave, and you are frequently near it while it's running, you ARE being exposed to pretty strong EMF energy. Whether any of that energy is coming from escaping microwaves, TBH, I'm not certain. But it IS certain that at the very least, there ARE very strong EMF waves escaping and you are being exposed to them. At the very least, there are 60 hz EMF waves coming from the magnetron and they're not exactly weak. Nobody's ever proven those are safe.

Personally, if the 60 hz waves are getting through, I wouldn't by a long shot trust that the microwaves are not getting through.

The question really is whether or not the waves are really a threat to your health. The cages do not keep all EMF energy inside the oven.


_________________
I'm not likely to be around much longer. As before when I first signed up here years ago, I'm finding that after a long hiatus, and after only a few days back on here, I'm spending way too much time here again already. So I'm requesting my account be locked, banned or whatever. It's just time. Until then, well, I dunno...


Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 44,040
Location: Stendec

16 Nov 2012, 9:53 am

Microwave ovens do not shield 100% of the radiation their circuits emit.

Have you never seen those "pacemaker" warnings?

However, once the oven shuts off, the only risk from eating the food might be that it is too hot. Let it cool off for a minute or two before eating.


_________________
 
Since there is no singular, absolute definition of human nature,
nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 84
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

16 Nov 2012, 11:18 am

MrXxx wrote:

Want proof? Turn on a transistor radio while standing several feet away from one while it's running, and tune the radio to AM (doesn't matter what frequency it's set at). Walk closer to the oven and listen. When you start hearing a buzz, that's EMF wave energy escaping from the oven being picked up by the radio.

.


Even so, the energy of the EMF transmitted by the micro-wave oven is not sufficient to do any damage.. However when the energy is -beamed-, watch out!

ruveyn



MrXxx
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 May 2010
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,760
Location: New England

16 Nov 2012, 11:50 am

ruveyn wrote:
MrXxx wrote:

Want proof? Turn on a transistor radio while standing several feet away from one while it's running, and tune the radio to AM (doesn't matter what frequency it's set at). Walk closer to the oven and listen. When you start hearing a buzz, that's EMF wave energy escaping from the oven being picked up by the radio.

.


Even so, the energy of the EMF transmitted by the micro-wave oven is not sufficient to do any damage..


There is no proof in existence that it does not. All we really know is that if there is any damage, it isn't obvious. There is no proof it does not cause damage due to long term exposure.

ruveyn wrote:
However when the energy is -beamed-, watch out!

ruveyn


Only the pure microwaves can be beamed. That is their nature. Microwaves travel in straight lines and can be blocked (either dispersed, reflected or absorbed) by almost any material. We already know they'll cause damage. That has been proven. EMF's at lower frequencies though, can cause measurable effects in humans if they are strong enough.

One can be electrocuted by a powerful enough surge of even low frequency EMF's. Just standing near a powerful enough transmittier can render the human body as an electrical conductor, just as if you are the secondary coil of a huge transformer. We already know that's possible, so there really is no telling what, if any, damage might be caused by long term exposure to somewhat lower power sources such as the magnetron in a microwave.

Lack of "proof" that EMF's are dangerous does not equal proof that they are not dangerous.

Conversely, lack of proof that they are not dangerous does not equal proof that they are.

The fact is, we can't say either way, so statements to the effect that they are not dangerous, are just as inaccurate as statements to the effect that they are.


_________________
I'm not likely to be around much longer. As before when I first signed up here years ago, I'm finding that after a long hiatus, and after only a few days back on here, I'm spending way too much time here again already. So I'm requesting my account be locked, banned or whatever. It's just time. Until then, well, I dunno...


ruveyn
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 21 Sep 2008
Age: 84
Gender: Male
Posts: 31,502
Location: New Jersey

16 Nov 2012, 12:14 pm

MrXxx wrote:

Lack of "proof" that EMF's are dangerous does not equal proof that they are not dangerous.

.

it is very difficult to prove a negative (other than showing a counterexample to a universal positive).

In general the one who makes a claim assumes the burden of proof. It is up to him to produce evidence that supports the claim.

For one who denies a general claim it is his burden to produce the counter example.

By the way, the exception does prove the rule. it proves the rule is false.

ruveyn



ianorlin
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Oct 2012
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 756

16 Nov 2012, 12:46 pm

I also think they are dangerous if dropped out of windows and people standing underneath them. That isn't the way they are dangerous the OP intended though.



TallyMan
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 30 Mar 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 40,061

16 Nov 2012, 1:00 pm

As I recall from my days as a physics student, the size of the holes in the mesh surrounding the microwave for shielding purposes is important (they probably match the wavelength of the radiation but I can't remember now). I remember some coursework which after doing the maths showed the transmission of the electromagnetic radiation of a particular frequency cancels to zero as it hits the shielding. However, this is only for the particular frequency of the microwave oven and since the oscillators don't produce a perfectly clean frequency there is bound to be a certain amount of leakage through the Faraday cage - presumably this is considered low enough not to be harmful to health. Though like one of my former lecturers once declared - no (high energy) electromagnetic radiation is entirely harmless - it is just a question of statistics - you can be run over crossing a busy highway in rush hour or by crossing a country lane where only one vehicle per day travels along it. Same principle with radiation.


_________________
I've left WP indefinitely.


MrXxx
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 May 2010
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,760
Location: New England

16 Nov 2012, 1:03 pm

Target acquired...

...and...


BULLS-EYE!


_________________
I'm not likely to be around much longer. As before when I first signed up here years ago, I'm finding that after a long hiatus, and after only a few days back on here, I'm spending way too much time here again already. So I'm requesting my account be locked, banned or whatever. It's just time. Until then, well, I dunno...


MrXxx
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 May 2010
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,760
Location: New England

16 Nov 2012, 1:22 pm

ruveyn wrote:
MrXxx wrote:

Lack of "proof" that EMF's are dangerous does not equal proof that they are not dangerous.

.

it is very difficult to prove a negative (other than showing a counterexample to a universal positive).

In general the one who makes a claim assumes the burden of proof. It is up to him to produce evidence that supports the claim.

For one who denies a general claim it is his burden to produce the counter example.

By the way, the exception does prove the rule. it proves the rule is false.

ruveyn


Your arguments are so circular I'm getting dizzy.

A) ]it is very difficult to prove a negative True. In most cases, it's impossible.

B) In general the one who makes a claim assumes the burden of proof. It is up to him to produce evidence that supports the claim.
Agreed. You made the claim "...the energy of the EMF transmitted by the micro-wave oven is not sufficient to do any damage.. Okay, where is your proof? (Oh yeah, you can't prove it, because you made... a negative statement! (way to dodge that bullet. :P) See point "A.")

C) For one who denies a general claim it is his burden to produce the counter example. I never denied or any claim as to the dangers (or lack thereof) of EMF's or microwaves specifically. You did.

ruveyn wrote:
...the energy of the EMF transmitted by the micro-wave oven is not sufficient to do any damage...

ruveyn


By your own logic, which in this post is not flawed (so far), you made a flat unprovable statement. The fact that you're defending it with this logic (which essentially proves you cannot prove your own statement), is kind of funny.


By the way, the exception does prove the rule. it proves the rule is false. Get me some aspirin. :shaking2: That one just hurts my head. Not because it is untrue, but because it bears no relevance to the question at hand.

What exception? Who gave an exception, and to what rule?

Regardless this idiom is only correct under certain circumstances.

If I say, "All birds can fly," then the exception of the penguin proves the rule false. The idiom holds up so far.

If however, I say, "Birds can fly," penguins are still an exception, but it doesn't prove the "rule" false at all, because I never said ALL birds can fly. Birds CAN fly. The exception does not prove the rule false in this case. The idiom doesn't always hold up.

I think Tallyman covered the issue of the dangers pretty well. Got straight to the point.

The simple fact is, nobody really knows if microwaves from microwave ovens will or will not damage any specific person in any specific circumstances. But we CAN say, we don't know. We cannot say with ANY certainty, "they are safe." Which is precisely what you did. :wink:


_________________
I'm not likely to be around much longer. As before when I first signed up here years ago, I'm finding that after a long hiatus, and after only a few days back on here, I'm spending way too much time here again already. So I'm requesting my account be locked, banned or whatever. It's just time. Until then, well, I dunno...


Fnord
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 6 May 2008
Gender: Male
Posts: 44,040
Location: Stendec

16 Nov 2012, 3:26 pm

I once met a girl from Kentucky who would never eat anything cooked in a microwave oven because she didn't want her children to become mutated -- they were aged 6, 8, and 11. No amount of facts or reason could convince her otherwise.


_________________
 
Since there is no singular, absolute definition of human nature,
nor any ultimate evaluation of human nature beyond that which we project onto others,
individuals should be judged or defined only by their actions and choices,
and not by what we only imagine their intentions and motivations to be.


markitzero
Velociraptor
Velociraptor

User avatar

Joined: 18 Sep 2010
Age: 34
Gender: Male
Posts: 480
Location: Moreno Valley, CA

16 Nov 2012, 3:37 pm

I was starting to get dizzy also from all this but there was a comment from MrXxx about turning on an AM Radio while it is running.

AM band is very sensitive to interference anything will cause issues, for example take a regular DC motor and run it near the AM radio also Lightning storms and cause interference. Alot of the Interference that the microwave ovens make goes through the wireing in the house, I have actually encountered it with a TV that got signals over the air with the old UHF/VHF signals. Even a TV Remotes when a button is pressed, Computers, TVs "LCD or CRT", Florescent lamps, Car Engines from the Distributor will create interference on AM Band at different distances.

But for the microwave ovens I see no issues man kind has been around them for so long, besides the radio that emits the microwave is only turned on when cooking other then that it is just the clock circuits which is no different then alarm clocks.


_________________
PSN : commandcom
My Blog: http://aspietechygamer.tk
http://panganesha.deviantart.com


MrXxx
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 May 2010
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,760
Location: New England

16 Nov 2012, 4:53 pm

True. But try the AM radio with a microwave, then compare the interference with the interference of other appliances. It's markedly more noticeable with microwave ovens, and can be picked up from quite a distance all around the room. Some of it does go back through the house wiring too, which may be why it is picked up so easily, but that is the source nonetheless.

I've not yet heard it that loud from anything else in any home I've lived in, from other appliances. Put it anywhere near a hi powered transformer though, or high tension wires, and it is a lot louder still. High tension wires especially.

I don't think it is the actual microwaves that do it though. I think it may be just the transformer in the power supply for the magnetron. That alone, I think, is powerful enough to do it.

I don't think it's a health issue either, but I wouldn't state it as fact. I don't really think we know quite enough about the effects yet.


_________________
I'm not likely to be around much longer. As before when I first signed up here years ago, I'm finding that after a long hiatus, and after only a few days back on here, I'm spending way too much time here again already. So I'm requesting my account be locked, banned or whatever. It's just time. Until then, well, I dunno...


ianorlin
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 22 Oct 2012
Age: 29
Gender: Male
Posts: 756

16 Nov 2012, 4:58 pm

Wouln't adding multiple layers of of near the right wavelength make it more safe of different sizes.



MrXxx
Veteran
Veteran

User avatar

Joined: 11 May 2010
Age: 60
Gender: Male
Posts: 5,760
Location: New England

16 Nov 2012, 5:05 pm

Layers of pillows on the head might help if it were tossed out a window, yes. How many would depend how high the window is. :P


_________________
I'm not likely to be around much longer. As before when I first signed up here years ago, I'm finding that after a long hiatus, and after only a few days back on here, I'm spending way too much time here again already. So I'm requesting my account be locked, banned or whatever. It's just time. Until then, well, I dunno...