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Stalk
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17 Nov 2012, 9:55 am

Pass
80% ToM and 100% control!



Noetic
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17 Nov 2012, 10:38 am

Callista wrote:
100% on both, no problems. I might not have passed when I was younger, but nowadays I can navigate the grammar and keep each person's list of facts known in short-term memory long enough to compare them. It's still tricky, but totally doable. It's like a logic puzzle.

I begin to think that theory of mind problems among autistics may not, in fact, be theory of mind problems at all, but complex-language and multi-tasking problems. To solve problems like the one on the quiz, you have to be able to interpret relatively complex grammar, as well as mentally keep track of several sets of facts and edit those sets of facts as you get new information. This is not something an autistic "one-track" mind is particularly good at. Interpreting human actions, intentions, and knowledge are just where the language and mult-tasking becomes most complex, where the most possible dimensions are simultaneously in play; so it's where you can see the drawbacks of the autistic cognitive style the most easily.

This is interesting. In my mid to late teens I did a lot of those logic puzzles where you have to read through a list of clues and then deduct the solution by checking off cross.matches between different possibilities.

I feel this has helped me a great deal in learning the mechanics behind interpreting written stories like this one. I often find I am now far better at interpreting written material than many others eg at work.



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17 Nov 2012, 10:59 am

I made some careless/inattentive mistakes, rereading the test resulted in a better score 100/100. But my first score was 60% ToM and 100% control.



wtfid2
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17 Nov 2012, 11:37 am

number 1is a trick..ic doesnt talk 8)


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Ganondox
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17 Nov 2012, 11:59 am

Well, maybe if this test didn't use so many vague pronouns and actually said "ice cream man" instead of "ice cream" and if the pictures actually works it could be understood :roll: . Looking I think it can definitely pick up some sort of deficit, but it may pick up other things besides just errors in theory of the mind. As Callista said I think it actually tests more about short term memory and language analysis, the hard part about the test wasn't looking at other peoples perspectives, but keeping track of all the information. Also there are several instances where the time period being referred to is not clear.

I got 80% TOM and 100% control (passing) and I think know exactly what went wrong. One of the questions was too damn vague about when John talked to the ice cream man, or something was lost by not seeing the pictures. This test sucks.


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ghoti
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17 Nov 2012, 1:23 pm

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60% ToM and 100% control!



MaKin
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17 Nov 2012, 3:50 pm

nokosage wrote:
"Where did the ice cream say to John he would be all afternoon?"

this is trippy


That's the mistake that distracted me the most. If that is to be taken literally as it is, then perhaps John's diagnosis should be schizophrenia or maybe overexposure to illicit psychedelic substances........or maybe it's not John, but the author?



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22 Nov 2012, 11:04 am

MaKin wrote:
nokosage wrote:
"Where did the ice cream say to John he would be all afternoon?"

this is trippy


That's the mistake that distracted me the most. If that is to be taken literally as it is, then perhaps John's diagnosis should be schizophrenia or maybe overexposure to illicit psychedelic substances........or maybe it's not John, but the author?


The worst part is it wasn't said what the icecream said in the story, but that isn't an option they give us.


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22 Nov 2012, 11:56 am

Callista wrote:
I begin to think that theory of mind problems among autistics may not, in fact, be theory of mind problems at all, but complex-language and multi-tasking problems.


This paper discusses that very idea (well, at least the idea about it being a language problem) and uses comparative analyses with other groups of children who fail ToM tests but are not generally considered to be lacking ToM:

http://gernsbacherlab.org/wp-content/uploads/papers/1/Gernsbacher_autistic_modules.pdf


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22 Nov 2012, 8:20 pm

animalcrackers wrote:
Callista wrote:
I begin to think that theory of mind problems among autistics may not, in fact, be theory of mind problems at all, but complex-language and multi-tasking problems.


This paper discusses that very idea (well, at least the idea about it being a language problem) and uses comparative analyses with other groups of children who fail ToM tests but are not generally considered to be lacking ToM:

http://gernsbacherlab.org/wp-content/uploads/papers/1/Gernsbacher_autistic_modules.pdf


We should make a megaposting containing a bunch of papers tearing appart popular autism theories and ridiculous study conclusions.


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marshall
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22 Nov 2012, 10:02 pm

I got 100% on both parts but I had to go back and read it a second time as the first time through I was totally confused.

The answer to 5 is ambiguous as it doesn't clarify whether it's referring to the first or second time the ice cream man talked to John. I only answered no after reading the rest of the questions and it became clear that question 5 was supposed to be control for 6 and 7.

Another problem. The answer to 7 could logically be "because she [Mary] thinks it's still in the park" even though that isn't the correct answer. The problem is the story doesn't explicitly say that the ice cream man was talking to Mary before he left. All it says is...

"Now, the ice cream man says, 'I'm going to drive my van to the church to see if I can sell my ice cream outside there.'".

I had to assume he was talking to Mary. He could have just been muttering to himself before sneaking off in his van. If Mary had gone off somewhere or wasn't paying attention she might not have realize he ever left the park.

That's the problem with these tests. I always make things more complicated and confuse myself when the information provided isn't air tight.



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22 Nov 2012, 10:12 pm

MaKin wrote:
nokosage wrote:
"Where did the ice cream say to John he would be all afternoon?"

this is trippy


That's the mistake that distracted me the most. If that is to be taken literally as it is, then perhaps John's diagnosis should be schizophrenia or maybe overexposure to illicit psychedelic substances........or maybe it's not John, but the author?


Hahaha. I noticed that too. That had to be a typo. That or the ice cream man is literally a man made out of ice cream. Would you eat ice cream that talks to you?



omegatyrant
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23 Nov 2012, 8:41 am

100% on both TOM and control, yet still an Aspie through and through.



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23 Nov 2012, 9:06 am

Nope.

I took it once and got passing,

Then took it twice with the SAME answers.

I failed.

And....there were supposed to be photos? I think the site is buggy, but I've taken a version of this before, and it's a good test. You will fail it if you over-think it, which is what we do.



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23 Nov 2012, 12:47 pm

EstherJ wrote:
You will fail it if you over-think it, which is what we do.


So you will pass it if you don't think. I think that explains a lot about this world we live in.


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rixxar12
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23 Nov 2012, 6:08 pm

Failed (0% ToM and 100% control)

Wtf?