Evolution theory... any biology wonks out there?

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AardvarkGoodSwimmer
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18 Nov 2012, 9:50 pm

and Ediacaran fossils are intriguing examples of pre-Cambrian multicellular creatures? (or perhaps not!)



GrandTuringSedan
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19 Nov 2012, 6:33 pm

Quote:
Your original post on this thread is definitely a diatribe.


Calling my post a diatribe isn't sufficient. Can you say what it is you think is unreasonable and/or emotion not supported by substance? (Please limit it to things I actually said.)

Quote:
I think that "debunking" also requires that the parties involved are rational and ready to listen to the truth. You can use all the logic you want with creationists but it doesn't amount to a debunking unless they are ready to accept a rational argument. When you then proceed to gripe about their religion and how they aren't rational, it becomes a diatribe.


What you are talking about is diplomacy, not debunking. Even a debate doesn't require both sides being willing to concede to the other. All debunking requires is showing the shortcomings, falseness, etc. of an idea. It does not require the idea's defenders to admit it.

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Patience truly is a virtue.


What exactly would you say I'm being impatient about? If you are going to bring someone's virtues into question, it would be nice to hear specifics.

Quote:
Quote:
People who have a personal faith would not insist that the rest of society protect them from realizations to the contrary. Only people looking for religious power would do that. When they do, it's good to be able to educate people about the limits of what faith can say about natural reality. Not all assertions are created equally and not all deserve a seat at the table.


And that is certainly a very nonsensical diatribe. If parents wish their children to be taught according to their beliefs, it is none of your business. The best we can hope for is to keep it out of the classroom.
[/quote]

When did I say parents shouldn't teach their kids according to their beliefs? I don't appreciate you insinuating that I want to curtail religious freedom. Please show me where I said that.

What I did say is that it's becoming necessary to show that faith is useless for examining natural reality. Illustrating that point is necessary in order to stem the tide of fundamentalists who want to create a false equivocation between faith and the scientific method. There have been several bills introduced in KY and IN attempting to loosen the standards of what can be taught as science in those states. In TX, the republican party platform includes a ban on teaching kids critical thinking skills.

These are examples of the scientific method being systematically chipped-away at by people who want the government to promote religion, which I think we both agree would do a lot of harm. Having the difference be known by as many people as possible might be a good way to keep these measures from succeeding.



slave
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22 Nov 2012, 10:23 pm

eric76 wrote:
GrandTuringSedan wrote:
I am a slightly less techy aut. I have been perenially frustrated by the cultural bias against solid bio-theory in the united states. When I was in high school, I was taught about bio processes, bio structures, bio chem, etc. But, the unifying theory of biology was not given its proper place, namely to unify all these fields of study.
The problem seems to be faith-based anti-intellectualism. When people deny all evidence, what evidence can you give? In an age when we're trying to cure pandemics, cancer, etc. will we be forced to start actively denouncing and debunking the process and products of faith?


Where are you that there is such a cultural bias?

There are always personal biases one way or another in just about anything, I don't know where you see a cultural bias.

Sure there are people who let their religion bias their personal views on scientific matters, but to me that the number of highly religious people seem to be in decline. Most of the religious people I meet do not object to science, but there are still many who argue against evolution and some who argue that the Earth is only a few thousand years old. I would hardly call these cultural, though.

And, for what it's worth, going on a diatribe against people's faith is going to be useless, at best, and possibly quite counterproductive.


WTF?!?!?!? 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O
have you even HEARD of America?!
seriously you cannot imagine how bad it is!


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Since the birth of civilization, small sets of dominant individuals have controlled the numerical majority. Even a cursory reading of world history will substantiate this claim. Kings, Pharaohs, Emperors, Sultans, Czars, and Dictators have imposed their will upon their subjects. This pattern has not changed over the millennia and it remains so, today. Our Masters rule over every nation and no one can defy them. They will attain Absolute Power as we reach the Singularity. All those who oppose their will, will be destroyed. Given the obvious futility, I will not resist. 2+2=5.


ruveyn
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23 Nov 2012, 7:55 am

slave wrote:

And, for what it's worth, going on a diatribe against people's faith is going to be useless, at best, and possibly quite counterproductive.


WTF?!?!?!? 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O 8O
have you even HEARD of America?!
seriously you cannot imagine how bad it is![/quote]

Actually I can. By the way a shortage of critical thinking and careful questioning of one's premises is a world wide defect. Not just in the U.S. For example the major Islamic powers in the Middle East and parts of Asia are very devout in their culture. Religious bigots are to found in abundance in both U.S. and Saudi Arabia and other Islamic states. In the U.S. we do not threaten people with loss of their heads if they tear a page out of the Bible and use it to wipe themselves.

ruveyn



naturalplastic
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24 Nov 2012, 1:14 am

AardvarkGoodSwimmer wrote:
naturalplastic wrote:
. . . The organelles of eukaryotic cells- such as mitochondria, and chloroplasts are very similiar in both size and in structure to entire bacteria cells. So the suspicion is that that is what they were originally. . .

I have read this about chloroplasts and mitochondria. But the latest thinking is that this is also the case for smooth endoplasmic reticulum, rough endoplasmic reticulum, Golgi apparatus, microfilaments, and most (all?) the rest of eukaryotic cellular organelles?

I also have read that eukaryotic cells are generally MUCH BIGGER than prokaryotic cells.


Thanks for exanding on my point.

That eukaryotic cells are much bigger than prokaryotic cells goes without saying ( like a flea to a dog - thats what a bacterium is to a paramecium they told us in junior high). What I said was its the organelles that make up the eurkaryotic cells that a similiar in size to bacteria.



slave
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24 Nov 2012, 1:25 am

ruveyn wrote:

Actually I can. By the way a shortage of critical thinking and careful questioning of one's premises is a world wide defect. Not just in the U.S. For example the major Islamic powers in the Middle East and parts of Asia are very devout in their culture. Religious bigots are to found in abundance in both U.S. and Saudi Arabia and other Islamic states. In the U.S. we do not threaten people with loss of their heads if they tear a page out of the Bible and use it to wipe themselves.

ruveyn


The masses lack the intelligence to think critically due to their low IQs and the immersion in their respective ideologies, cultures, etc... ensures that they will never even try. You are correct. This defect as you aptly call it indirectly causes an existential threat to our own species. Can we avoid destruction until we can evolve beyond this frightful ignorance and incapacity?
:wall:


_________________
Since the birth of civilization, small sets of dominant individuals have controlled the numerical majority. Even a cursory reading of world history will substantiate this claim. Kings, Pharaohs, Emperors, Sultans, Czars, and Dictators have imposed their will upon their subjects. This pattern has not changed over the millennia and it remains so, today. Our Masters rule over every nation and no one can defy them. They will attain Absolute Power as we reach the Singularity. All those who oppose their will, will be destroyed. Given the obvious futility, I will not resist. 2+2=5.


ruveyn
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24 Nov 2012, 1:30 am

slave wrote:

The masses lack the intelligence to think critically due to their low IQs and the immersion in their respective ideologies, cultures, etc... ensures that they will never even try. You are correct. This defect as you aptly call it indirectly causes an existential threat to our own species. Can we avoid destruction until we can evolve beyond this frightful ignorance and incapacity?
:wall:


Probably not.

By the way, you are fed by the labor of those "masses" you denigrate.

ruveyn



slave
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24 Nov 2012, 1:37 am

ruveyn wrote:
slave wrote:

The masses lack the intelligence to think critically due to their low IQs and the immersion in their respective ideologies, cultures, etc... ensures that they will never even try. You are correct. This defect as you aptly call it indirectly causes an existential threat to our own species. Can we avoid destruction until we can evolve beyond this frightful ignorance and incapacity?
:wall:


Probably not.

By the way, you are fed by the labor of those "masses" you denigrate.

ruveyn


Granted.
I am very misanthropic toward them out of sheer exasperation for the way they think and behave.


_________________
Since the birth of civilization, small sets of dominant individuals have controlled the numerical majority. Even a cursory reading of world history will substantiate this claim. Kings, Pharaohs, Emperors, Sultans, Czars, and Dictators have imposed their will upon their subjects. This pattern has not changed over the millennia and it remains so, today. Our Masters rule over every nation and no one can defy them. They will attain Absolute Power as we reach the Singularity. All those who oppose their will, will be destroyed. Given the obvious futility, I will not resist. 2+2=5.