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MarketAndChurch
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22 Nov 2012, 3:17 am

Prud wrote:
I fully appreciate MarketAndChurch's comments on this subject of fact and the emotional response to people when you say evolution is a theory, not a fact.

But lets consider this, would you tell a child at this time of year that father Christmas does not exist, if you did would that child not cry inconsolably?

For MarketAndChurch to accept the scientific theory of evolution is an emotional one, to accept this is to question the blind watchmaker and this would be an inconsolably position to comprehend.
MarketAndChurch consistently informs all that the children of Israel have done more than most to advance the sciences but forgets to include that these advances come only after the acceptance of the reality of evolution. For this "theory" which is the unifying force in modern biology and is responsible for mans advancements in DNA mapping, medicine, genetics, domestication of plants and animals, antibiotics, organ transplants, artificial selection, computer science, paleontology and the list goes on.
MarketAndChurch also talks about the use of mathematics to prove things but fails to acknowledge that the theory of evolution can be expressed in mathematical terms of population genetics, natural selection and has been rigorously tested and empirically corroborated.

The mind of a child is a fragile one, accepting of fairy stories, wizards and monsters but not developed enough to comprehend logic. These “child like” delusions in isolation being taken into adulthood would result in the need for psychological intervention, when it's done in a group we call it religion.



I am a Jew. I celebrate Christmas with my Christian family though. Why would it matter that a child cries upon finding out Santa does not exist. Not only did I come up poor as a first generation immigrant to America, we bought our gifts ourselves from discount dollar stores and still enjoyed belief in Santa Clause. I can't name a person I know who was so traumatized upon finding out that Santa does not exist that it saw lasting impressions into their adulthood and they have never been able to recuperate from the experience.

Please cite where I have once said that the children of israel has done more for science then anyone. I'll defend what I said or retract it but please quote the post so I can see what you are talking about. Advances in biology owe their discoveries more so to true hard sciences. Mathematics owes nothing to macro evolution. Nothing. The tools and instruments used to model the human body come from researching the hard disciplines.

Macroevolution meaningfully donated what to physics and chemistry and to scientific discoveries? And I mean this in a serious sense, macro evolution lended itself to DNA mapping how? Medicine? Vaccines? Antibiotics? Computer Science? Mathematics? Population Genetics? Please be honest, when one dismisses evolution, one is talking strictly about macroevolution.


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Mikkel
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22 Nov 2012, 3:28 am

A limit, but somewhat useful rule of thump is what happens if we go from singular to plural?

Are all facts the same kind? Can there be different kinds of facts?
And so on. E.g. if we can use objective on some facts, are there then some subjective facts?



MarketAndChurch
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22 Nov 2012, 3:40 am

Prud wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
No, it is not an ethical system I would aspire to, but you can source ethics from anything. You can source ethics from the flowing streams, the behavior of animals and the sun and the moon and the tide, you can source ethics from power and what the defense of it dictates, you can source ethics from whatever social groups or full on communities dictate, you can source ethics from a whole number of things.


I would appreciate an explaination of ethics sourced from "a flowing stream", "sun and the moon and the tide"?


Taoism

To corrupt ones natural state is to not go with the flow of nature.

it is moral to be natural, it is immoral to corrupt ones natural state with corrupting man-centric education. I am not doing Taoism justice with this simplistic reduction but you get the point.


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Mikkel
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22 Nov 2012, 3:46 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:
Prud wrote:
MarketAndChurch wrote:
No, it is not an ethical system I would aspire to, but you can source ethics from anything. You can source ethics from the flowing streams, the behavior of animals and the sun and the moon and the tide, you can source ethics from power and what the defense of it dictates, you can source ethics from whatever social groups or full on communities dictate, you can source ethics from a whole number of things.


I would appreciate an explaination of ethics sourced from "a flowing stream", "sun and the moon and the tide"?


Taoism

To corrupt ones natural state is to not go with the flow of nature.

it is moral to be natural, it is immoral to corrupt ones natural state with corrupting man-centric education. I am not doing Taoism justice with this simplistic reduction but you get the point.


Here is a part of ethics, not that is an ethical system itself, but is related to truth and ethics.
Quote:
Bernie LaPlante: "You remember when I said how I was gonna explain about life, buddy? Well the thing about life is, it gets weird. People are always talking ya about truth. Everybody always knows what the truth is, like it was toilet paper or somethin', and they got a supply in the closet. But what you learn, as you get older, is there ain't no truth. All there is is BS, pardon my vulgarity here. Layers of it. One layer of BS on top of another. And what you do in life like when you get older is, you pick the layer of BS that you prefer and that's your BS, so to speak." http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0104412/

:)



MarketAndChurch
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22 Nov 2012, 4:06 am

Mikkel wrote:
A limit, but somewhat useful rule of thump is what happens if we go from singular to plural?

Are all facts the same kind? Can there be different kinds of facts?
And so on. E.g. if we can use objective on some facts, are there then some subjective facts?


I suggested that facts are to be viewed in the plural from previous posts on this thread.

If one entertains, for example, the concept of Separate, but equal, removed of that Jim-crow South context... Does it carry its weight intellectually? Is it possible.. to be separate, but equal? Examples are endless of two things that range in degree of difference from slightly different to fundamentally different, and yet their relationship to each other is still equal. In a philosophical and natural context, the term carries its weight, even if untrue in some political

its the same as my catholic example of the earth is the center of the universe that I mentioned earlier.


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MarketAndChurch
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22 Nov 2012, 4:10 am

Even in a political sense, separate but equal is possible, no?


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Mikkel
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22 Nov 2012, 4:55 am

MarketAndChurch wrote:
Even in a political sense, separate but equal is possible, no?


Yes, if you think/feel it, it is a fact that you and others can do so, but that yet others can do otherwise.



Tequila
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22 Nov 2012, 7:12 am

That there are nine million bicycles in Beijing.



Mikkel
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22 Nov 2012, 7:19 am

Tequila wrote:
That there are nine million bicycles in Beijing.


Problem - what makes bicycles and Beijing facts? Are there different kind of facts involving them?



Tequila
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22 Nov 2012, 4:22 pm

Mikkel wrote:
Problem - what makes bicycles and Beijing facts? Are there different kind of facts involving them?


It's a joke.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHQG6-DojVw[/youtube]



Mikkel
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23 Nov 2012, 1:18 am

Tequila wrote:
Mikkel wrote:
Problem - what makes bicycles and Beijing facts? Are there different kind of facts involving them?


It's a joke.

[youtube]http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eHQG6-DojVw[/youtube]


:oops: