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LearningTime
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20 Nov 2012, 8:50 pm

I don't get what social skills means. I'd get what people skills means i imagine like you have to deal with people when you don't want to and you may have to be a bit weary and friendly like street wise.

But social skills that sounds like some robotic routine task. this is how one behaves when around others. Others can be in categories of aquantiance family stranger etc. What are social skills. You can't control your body language if you're nervous you're either gona look nervous or look like you're trying to cover up you're nervous so that would body language not a skill - skill means like table tennis skill something that requires thought - body language and stuff is emotion not thought. there's no 'procedure' for feeling comfortable or liking people.

rant (stream of consciousness writing) here:
succeedsocially.com - i do not get that site... even if you were to succeed socially and that makes socialising seem like a bad thing in itself which you just have to do for some other neccessary success. also even if you were to 'succceed socially' by doing what that site says to do you would be an empty robot conformist fake person who probably judges others way inappropriately if they're failing at the 'game of socialising'. teaching yourself how to speak in a conversation.. you know something gone wrong when simply speaking and listening is something that needs to be taught to you... i'd say the only people that need to learn 'social skills' are the ones who are overly social and enjoy themselves so much they forget about sort of general politeness or stepping over the line of doing outrageous stuff. people who are just socially awkward well you can't 'skill' away anxiety, nerves, desire to socialise in the first place. my second problem with social skills is that social is a subjective thing and skills is an objective thing... if the social community were a community of retards and you were the only sane one there then you'd be failing socially if you didn't socialise much and when you did it was all a mess... but that would be the right natural order of it all and you wouldn't be able to say that the person was lacking any skill because skill implies objectively good and social implies subjective majority of people opinion. so when you combine those two words it just doesn't work. succedsocially.com... f**k... 'have a set of stock phrases and topics you can talk about with the other person'... because that's just so fun and great and natural and personal and what is absolutely essential to your life and your 'succcess'.

and the reason i can say all of that rant is because i do have an idea what i think it's about socialising (but having started a sentence like this just then that definately makes me sound like i'm really not certain and don't have an idea and asocial) it isn't a skill... if you're a psychopath then you may need to work hard and develop the skill of doing what is right but if you uncomfortable socially you can't develop the skill of deciding and being comfortable. you can try to do stuff to make you comfortable but you can't just say i will be comfortable which is what a lot of it says to do or impliciatlevely says to do as they ignore wha tto do with comfort and just tell you all the superficial ridiculous stuff like how to speak and take turns and evne more stuff that is too obvious and mundane to remember. but i think it's to do with this theory that some people are so logical and verbal thinking that there minds think in this way so much that their visual processing becomes less they don't look at visual information they just look at something and translate it into word form ie get a meaning rather than simply sensing as it is. so when they look at faces they don't see microexpressions not even if they tried because their brain's visual processing simply isn't taking in enough subtle movements in teh face ie enough pure visual information as it has subconcios verbal 'thought noise' as i call it going on. and not just a theory when i start mentally sensing taste, touch, visuals etc like when you read a book or imagination or even when learning just learning in visual like dysleixc people do (and they're really good at reading faces apparently and general bodylangauge) then that makes my inner thought quieten that voice quiets and i'm really excited and in a sensory more in the now feel and that allows to then vicariously feel people by looking at them their emotion exudes from their movement posture facial expression and if they feel joy i'll feel some of that joy and it's great if they're nervous i'll know it - it's like you feel their state but in a small amount it's certainly there and you're aware of it but as soon you look away from the visual information the feeling will go away so it's not really intense but blissfull; above and beyond just feeling normal and fine.

so did anyone else think this with social skills it just seems a bit robotic and wrong like the opposite of having a good time and being natural and stuff and as if it's the social authority those people who never do anything outrageous and are reserved who are like imposing their way as if it's right or something like that. because honestly if the main things to do with your brain's perception then stop trying to help me and other people by giving them one thousand minor things that one may have to remember and do in a social situation but instead just let them enjoy teach them how and why some it all happens and my theory/experience (sitll in the practice of getting myself in taht sensory mode by changing how i think) is pretty much my previous paragraph ie vicariously experiencing someone else and both your states exuding from you rbody naturally and thus you share that feeling you both have an identical feelin that is your sensation of one another.



Samian
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20 Nov 2012, 9:11 pm

I didn't read all that - too long - can you ask a question or something!! !! !! !



LearningTime
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20 Nov 2012, 9:24 pm

Samian wrote:
I didn't read all that - too long - can you ask a question or something!! !! !! !


i should have posted: the rant part doesn't really need to be read. my statement is basically learning social skills is wrong because it's mainly about changing whatever your emotional state that your brain reacts and puts you in around others is and that interaction isn't about conversation particularly that's just one part of it just like playing football with your friends could be one things you just happen to do the crux of social difficulties is to do with your sensory experience and social interaction being around people is just teh sensory experience (vicariously experiencing each other and sharing the same feeling you both know and aware of the exact same feeling which comes through your faces ot each other) and then i guess 'getting to know' that person. so just people can discus that idea disagree agree say why etc. maybe this a good question not what are social skills (because theirs a f**k load of small appropriate things apparently) but what is the purpose of individual social skills? what does it bring for you etc what does it solve and all that?



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20 Nov 2012, 9:49 pm

I know what you're getting at and for me it's really something that when it does happen naturally and I get on with another person , it's so much more beyond those stock phrases we really connect and it's great. But like everything else autistic, it's feast or famine. I either REALLY click and GET a person, or completely miss them. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground and those people that I don't get at all are like a million miles away from my 'vicariously experiencing them', your words.

I think what "social skills" are: the ability/skillset of playing personality with others. It's not true, or real, at all. It's adopting a pleasing persona that goes through what it must to be accepted and liked. Autism precludes that necessity. Or entirely bypasses it. Let me say also that most people that are mentally retarded are moderately cherished for their child-like innocence and once in a while someone with autism is favorably appreciated for their authenticity and honesty. Those judgements are more profound than social ones, imo.

Good thoughts. Thank you for sharing this perspective.



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20 Nov 2012, 10:24 pm

kirayng wrote:
I know what you're getting at and for me it's really something that when it does happen naturally and I get on with another person , it's so much more beyond those stock phrases we really connect and it's great. But like everything else autistic, it's feast or famine. I either REALLY click and GET a person, or completely miss them. There doesn't seem to be a middle ground and those people that I don't get at all are like a million miles away from my 'vicariously experiencing them', your words.

I think what "social skills" are: the ability/skillset of playing personality with others. It's not true, or real, at all. It's adopting a pleasing persona that goes through what it must to be accepted and liked. Autism precludes that necessity. Or entirely bypasses it. Let me say also that most people that are mentally retarded are moderately cherished for their child-like innocence and once in a while someone with autism is favorably appreciated for their authenticity and honesty. Those judgements are more profound than social ones, imo.

Good thoughts. Thank you for sharing this perspective.


the vicariously experiencing i should describe better - even when i'm in that mode and i watch someone in a video on youtube or whatever like on my laptop or even say the animation of the character in my 2d fighting game arcana heart 3 ( i'll experience their feeling from the face or simply the physical (touch or maybe it's propriecitation ) sense of their body moving in their stance pose in like the character screen) - even the faces of the characters in a manga book i just feel what is going on with that face. so it's truly like a brain thing rather than a personal thing like literally how ones visual processing system works and i really need to try getting to that sensory mode more often it makes my problems go away hehe and it feels so good you're literally in the moment you have 'attention' rather than thought - you're simply paying attention to the different information of your sense doesn't matter what type of object or thing or process it is just simply what is it's specific beautifull taste, touch, weight (which you get by looking at it), visual, and of course sound - when in this state music you hear everything in a song (idk about others but when i hear a song i'm not really hearing all of it at once all the different bass, vocals etc - only in this sensory state do i know what i missing out on usually).

btw i don't think it's bad that all clicking or all not at all - as long as you don't have stuff to do with people who you don't click with or you don't have to see that many people and can just do a lot with the ones you click with. i get a kind of click if i see people who i see as like 'socially' vulnerable that means like 'good' people morallly good people the ones you can tell don't like doing bad things to others not selfish or whatever. i'll even feel comfortable around people who get picked on or piss taken by the group because it's like i have a kind of thought to be nice to them as if i have a role not that explicitly but i just feel plain comfortable around people who are either at the lower end of the social rank and popularity/give off that perhaps they don't care about the social rank popularity coolness. but i think i was still awkward a bit around them too and i didn't get a big rush of excitement and energy anyway. just some people you just know they're just perfectly harmless

i'd like to say to you i also hate how this whole 'disorder' thing at austists when ffs can't they look at the world and see it is bad (people are aggressive there's war, all people lie, just tonnes of stuff that is a country) and then that makes me think like the psychiatrists and people are evil and are saying it's good to be bad like them. like the whole blaming the victim rather than the bully. like honestly why do they think there's that much 'order' in this world. like how many autistic people commit crimes ffs. i'd say normal people the ones i see in general ones in my flat they're great it's just the idea of what people do in general the whole just going to clubs just a bit boring. it's like the voice over you hear in documentaries (british) ones why do you sound like every other f*****g narrator there is? why are you clones??? but yeah when it's just seeing people with thoughtless sensation vision the whole vicarious experience it's interesting it's good and it all goes naturally.

retarded and child like innocence = down syndrome people?



Samian
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20 Nov 2012, 11:14 pm

well, I still didn't read all that but I can see some contempt for certain social behaviours etc.

This was me when I was younger - I wish someone had explained a few things to me then that I know now. Basically I had so little success socially growing up that I decided that everyone else was [email protected]@ed up - it had to be that way obviously because I was completely OK! After all , I got good grades in school and could do almost any task I set my mind to.

Social skills are kind of like a compass that help you navigate outside of familiar situations and people. If you have them you can function in new situations without getting stressed. Success in these situations can lead to good things happening for you. A currrency more valuable than money.

cheers,



DannyRaede
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20 Nov 2012, 11:16 pm

All learning "social skills" means is learning how to communicate in a way that others understand and react to. So its mainly communication skills.



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21 Nov 2012, 6:44 pm

Samian wrote:
well, I still didn't read all that but I can see some contempt for certain social behaviours etc.

This was me when I was younger - I wish someone had explained a few things to me then that I know now. Basically I had so little success socially growing up that I decided that everyone else was [email protected]@ed up - it had to be that way obviously because I was completely OK! After all , I got good grades in school and could do almost any task I set my mind to.

Social skills are kind of like a compass that help you navigate outside of familiar situations and people. If you have them you can function in new situations without getting stressed. Success in these situations can lead to good things happening for you. A currrency more valuable than money.

cheers,


you mean you didn't read 'all that' of my second very short comment to you? jeez learn some online social skills...



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21 Nov 2012, 6:46 pm

DannyRaede wrote:
All learning "social skills" means is learning how to communicate in a way that others understand and react to. So its mainly communication skills.


that's the thing i've read descriptions of it like the one you've given me but to me it's a vague description. specifically the part 'in a way that others undrstand and react to' what does that actually describe refer to? when would they not react to it?



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21 Nov 2012, 6:53 pm

Samian wrote:
well, I still didn't read all that but I can see some contempt for certain social behaviours etc.

This was me when I was younger - I wish someone had explained a few things to me then that I know now. Basically I had so little success socially growing up that I decided that everyone else was [email protected]@ed up - it had to be that way obviously because I was completely OK! After all , I got good grades in school and could do almost any task I set my mind to.

Social skills are kind of like a compass that help you navigate outside of familiar situations and people. If you have them you can function in new situations without getting stressed. Success in these situations can lead to good things happening for you. A currrency more valuable than money.

cheers,


my only contempt is for robots who think they know how to socialise because they follow certain rules or people that make the rules in the first places. the only rule is don't be a douche or have bad intentions... if i were to make rules i'd say to get rid of social hierarchy don't try and think you're higher up than someone etc... but that's what i mean i don't care if that's how people think but i'm just pointing out there's no objective way to behave around people in terms of it being a skill. and what i've wrote to kiryang shows

'Basically I had so little success socially growing up that I decided that everyone else was [email protected]@ed up ' - this is just cognitive dissonance - i haven't had that. and i'm not one of those people like on aspies for freedom or generally you see who refer to neurotypicals and think there's a huge divide between these 'neurotypicals' and autsists. i just think socialising you'll get any success by thinking about set things you have to do and personally like others i don't just think established social whatevers are always correct - and that's a good way to live. it seems you have the same thoughts i do when you say social skills are like a compass that help you when in unfamiliar situaitons - i agree that my version of social skills does that but that's one of my points against social skills that learning all the different rituals doesn't help you in an unfamiliar situation because you haven't prepared to know the rules for that situation whereas if you go without rules and just have the sensory eyes to read people and vicariously experiecne the same emotion as them and bond then that's the main thing that means you can learn rules as you see them within certain groups and you can do well in new situations because everyone has a feeling on their face. but you haven't actually defined what you think social skills specifically you just told me the benefits of social skills...



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21 Nov 2012, 7:39 pm

Learningtime,

I don't think there is an objective way to approach social skills. There's no one size fits all approach.

Everything depends on the context. Everything. it's all about the context. The "skill" in social skills is about reading the context and adjusting your approach to suit.

The good thing is there are only so many patterns in the context . Maybe someone else who's figured all this out can add something further.

cheers,



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21 Nov 2012, 7:52 pm

Samian wrote:
Learningtime,

I don't think there is an objective way to approach social skills. There's no one size fits all approach.

Everything depends on the context. Everything. it's all about the context. The "skill" in social skills is about reading the context and adjusting your approach to suit.

The good thing is there are only so many patterns in the context . Maybe someone else who's figured all this out can add something further.

cheers,


i'm still what you've actually read of what i've said which you are then basing your responses to me on...

my original post was also to do with the phrase social skills it's never ever seaid social skill which makes a lot of difference for a thinking person. i agree there isn't one size fits all that's why the way they teach social skills shouldn't be teaching all those specific things you to do and have them learn it by rote... which is how it's done... and hence my problem with the idea of social skill as it is considered by the people who teach it.

anyway what do you mean by it's all about context? this sounds right but i'm not sure it differs from my thinking that all you need for social skills is being able to vicariously experience other people which in this busy thinking tasked world is hard to be in that mode. but to help me understand 'context' what would be an example of two different contexts and how they'd affect?. Btw i'm not disagreeing it's about context and i'm not even disagreeing about those specific things they teach just the way they teach you the psecifics rather the general which would let you pick up all the specifics naturally and i think it must come down to essentially how your brain is wired as that's the main difference between the non social and the social - i think when you can vicariously read people this would let you learn the different context from experience and then learn the different behaviours you may decide to act in those contexts. are you into PUA?



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21 Nov 2012, 9:02 pm

LearningTime wrote:


my original post was also to do with the phrase social skills it's never ever seaid social skill which makes a lot of difference for a thinking person. i agree there isn't one size fits all that's why the way they teach social skills shouldn't be teaching all those specific things you to do and have them learn it by rote... which is how it's done... and hence my problem with the idea of social skill as it is considered by the people who teach it.


I don't know how social skills can be learned by rote. I would like to hear this from a psychologist who works in this area how effective it is. It has to be better than nothing right?

I think it would be like playing rock paper scissors with 100,000 combinations - who could remember them all?

Here's an example .

I met a person recently who I think is using rote skills. Really nice guy, everybody says he's a nice guy so he must be making a good impression but he looks awkward sometimes. He will introduce himself a certain way and then turn to a person within earshot and introduce himself the same way with the same words - fairly long introduction. Anybody can see it was rehearsed and so in that context the requirement would be to vary the introduction. That's just one example of context. In this case with our group it's OK that he gets it a bit wrong but in a different group it screams I HAVE WEAK SOCIAL SKILLS and then whatever follows on from that - probably exclusion in some groups. again, different group , different contxt different consequences.

It's rock paper scissors times 1000!



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22 Nov 2012, 12:13 am

Samian wrote:
LearningTime wrote:


my original post was also to do with the phrase social skills it's never ever seaid social skill which makes a lot of difference for a thinking person. i agree there isn't one size fits all that's why the way they teach social skills shouldn't be teaching all those specific things you to do and have them learn it by rote... which is how it's done... and hence my problem with the idea of social skill as it is considered by the people who teach it.


I don't know how social skills can be learned by rote. I would like to hear this from a psychologist who works in this area how effective it is. It has to be better than nothing right?

I think it would be like playing rock paper scissors with 100,000 combinations - who could remember them all?

Here's an example .

I met a person recently who I think is using rote skills. Really nice guy, everybody says he's a nice guy so he must be making a good impression but he looks awkward sometimes. He will introduce himself a certain way and then turn to a person within earshot and introduce himself the same way with the same words - fairly long introduction. Anybody can see it was rehearsed and so in that context the requirement would be to vary the introduction. That's just one example of context. In this case with our group it's OK that he gets it a bit wrong but in a different group it screams I HAVE WEAK SOCIAL SKILLS and then whatever follows on from that - probably exclusion in some groups. again, different group , different contxt different consequences.

It's rock paper scissors times 1000!


if you see the vids articles on it they teach you to do the specific many social skills which require no thought so it would simply be a matter of rote learning. if you see vids of teaching them it to children it's just rote no why you do it or anything just this is what you do. they're giving them the fish rather than teaching them how to fish (that phrase can't remember it exactly) - teaching how to fish in my mind is the changing your cognitive state - here's a psychologists study that is pretty much what i researched and came to the conclusion of myself/what i'm talking about here - http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sf6Q0G1iHBI

yeah we agree and that's what i think sites like succeedsocially.com (which was made by a very non social up his whole childhood/adolescence) are making them be like that guy ie they're just no effective and if they are conssidered effective right to behave that way then that f***s up view of socialising.

'Anybody can see it was rehearsed and so in that context the requirement would be to vary the introduction' yeah i think if he looked awkward he probably felt awkward and that's because he's an analytical systemiser not an experiential thinker. personally it's worked for me when i've got into the experiential mode and balhahabh i won't repeat dw...

so i agree with that situation and what you've said but your method you say is learning about the contexts? how does that work? remembering contexts is just like remembering specific actions - it's still the idea of a set of things to do aka 'social skills' whereas with my way you just feel good around people and enjoy it because my way ultimately is changing your actual brain so it becomes a normal social brain and then you don't need to remember what to do etc just like the normal people don't.

my perspecitve is scientific so i consider my problem simply that i feel nervous when i look at faces/people around me and it's this that causes all those other problems that may happen or may not by chance and also would make me not even want to socialise for socialising's sake. so i realised it was a visual thing that triggered that state and then i just realised my own states and what i was seeing in others and all that and did research and then finally realised that when you're in a sensory experiential thinking state your perception (ie literally how your eyes are tracking objects in real sight) alters how much information ie micro expressions you pick up on from faces and then before you know blissfully, wonderfully you just know what that person is feeling in the point in time in which it syou're seeing them (ie taking int heir movement, posture, facial expression, tone of voice any pure sense you don't have any thoughts the sensory information just translates into feeling their feeling). and so how to get into the state well i'm pracising and only done it recently i've got into the exctied quite a lot before by 'accident' kind of and now by controlled ways and the way i think to do is to think in signified not signifiers. it's all mental not what you do that changes your brain... so literally how you think. if you see my post on 'what are your thinking styles' that's what i mean to do with that. but yeah signified means the actual object or whatever the word (signifier) refers to so you mentally sense that object ie you see it with your minds eye - the second rule is don't remember just visualise or sense by a memory but instead create imagine - this will bring you 'abstract' signifides and when your mind produces somehow miraculously any type of vague visual that you've never seen in your life before but is your creation this brings with it a feeling ( a good one that simply 'IS' that image/touch mental sensory information) the more you do this the more you shift into a thoughtless sensory mode and having mentally seen, tastes, touched etc you'll notice you can now 'pay attention' to the real things you sense around you - as after using your mind's senses (psychosomatics senses) you have now have a 'sense' of your real senses ie the real world. you need an inner world to be excited for the real world. also thinking in the signified rather than signifiers whilst you may lose logical thinking ( i think) makes you more in touch with reality and current things.



Last edited by LearningTime on 22 Nov 2012, 12:26 am, edited 1 time in total.

DGuru
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22 Nov 2012, 12:17 am

Samian wrote:
Social skills are kind of like a compass that help you navigate outside of familiar situations and people. If you have them you can function in new situations without getting stressed. Success in these situations can lead to good things happening for you. A currrency more valuable than money.


You could also avoid stress by devaluing the outcome of the situation.

I wouldn't call it more valuable than money. If you have enough money that gives you the line "I'm the one who has hundreds of millions/billions of dollars" to use in confusing social situations. It's also likely that a loss could be more easily brushed off and forgotten about. Bill Gates likely has Asperger's Syndrome, but if I had to place a bet I'd guess he probably rarely ever worries about that stuff.



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22 Nov 2012, 12:28 am

DGuru wrote:
Samian wrote:
Social skills are kind of like a compass that help you navigate outside of familiar situations and people. If you have them you can function in new situations without getting stressed. Success in these situations can lead to good things happening for you. A currrency more valuable than money.


You could also avoid stress by devaluing the outcome of the situation.

I wouldn't call it more valuable than money. If you have enough money that gives you the line "I'm the one who has hundreds of millions/billions of dollars" to use in confusing social situations. It's also likely that a loss could be more easily brushed off and forgotten about. Bill Gates likely has Asperger's Syndrome, but if I had to place a bet I'd guess he probably rarely ever worries about that stuff.


what are outcomes for situations? isn't the reward the situation itself without any outcomes? can you give me examples of your personal outcomes you'd want or not want?

because being honest with you i don't really know what to think as a good outcome or not coz i'm weird hehe.