Become a Teacher and Teach the Bullies a Lesson

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that would be so good.

also does anyone know how you can follow you own threads easily like notifications for when people reply without having to keep it open?

As soon as you post in any thread you should start receiving email alerts to all subsequent replies to those posts. Then all you have to do is watch your email alerts.

I think you have to turn it on in your account settings somewhere. I don't get alerts but I remember seeing it in settings somewhere or other...

Anyway, I'm a teacher, and believe it or not, there's not a whole lot that can be done about bullies. Most of them act how they do because of a home situation that you can't affect. You can punish them all you want, but in the end that's what they're getting at home too (constant punishment by parents, usually father, no matter what they do) and really it's the reason they're acting this way (trying to show parents how strong they are in the hopes of finally getting some love or approval) so teachers reinforcing it at school is not helping the situation. It's painful to see it happening again and again with the same kids, and to see how their parents treat them and know you can't do anything to help them.

As a kid I remember my parents telling me that I should ignore the bullies because they are very unhappy, and it seemed like nonsense to me since they were strong and I was weak, and they were hurting me. Now as an adult watching these kids and being responsible for them, I can see how much they are suffering.

The victim of a bully suffers (as I did growing up) but almost always pulls through and can be helped through the support of teachers, friends, and family. The bully him- or her-self suffers both at school and at home, will never receive approval from the people he most desires love from (his parents). They never, ever, EVER feel like they are worth a damn in this world and will probably ultimately end up in, at best, a deeply unsatisfying and painful life, or at worst, prison or a violent death.

So if you are being bullied, take it from me, a former bullying victim and current teacher, it does get better for you. It never gets better for them, and there's nothing the teachers can do to help. Someday you will be happy and successful, but they will always suffer.

I'm going to try to be civil here, but Google the name "Phoebe Prince". Bullying victims are not always all right. There are a lot of other kids who kill themselves because of bullying. Obviously, I never did, but I can understand them. Protect the victims, then worry about helping the bullies. (The superintendent of the school system that let Phoebe Prince die was a teacher at my high school - and before I ever saw who it was, I thought I recognised the bureaucratic double-speak as very familiar.)

Perhaps you're actually trying to be decent, I can't tell. Some of the things you said set me off too much for that. I did have a few decent teachers, here and there. But the very worst thing was the way the administration handled things - and the administration was all about covering their butts and keeping the popular and connected kids happy. Those who rose in the system (as a certain teacher did to become a superintendent) learned how to play that game. Look at Phoebe Prince's case: I doubt most of those kids were treated badly at home. They were popular, entitled jerks. Sure, I knew some bullies who had it rough. I never really liked them, but I could at least understand where they were coming from. But there were at least as many bullies - usually less overtly violent, but much more malicious - who were popular and prestigious and covered their tracks well enough to get by, since the teachers never wanted to believe those kids could be the little monsters they were. If you actually want to help anyone, learn to identify those kids, and figure out a way to stop them cold, and teach them that sooner or later, they won't get away with it.

the bully doesnt' suffer at school. they make others suffer. see how their parents treat them and then you can do stuff to help them by getting government authority involved domestically. my assumption is that you're a sensitive person so you don't even need to mention how bad it is for the bullied and find it more interesting the suffering of the bully.

'They never, ever, EVER feel like they are worth a damn in this world and will probably ultimately end up in, at best, a deeply unsatisfying and painful life, or at worst, prison or a violent death' - i've read/heard they say people bully to big themselves up sometimes it gets them higher socially.

as for they want to show they're 'strong' (abusive) to their abusive parents... great.. that means they're definitively evil... you gota think how many bullies end up killing themselves vs how many bullied killed themslevs?

if i were a teacher perhaps i'd see the bullies what's making em do it or perhaps i'd see the evil with good eyes from above and see just how f****d up it was... that my child eyes couldn't see when i was amongst it. after reading all this stuff about normal aggressive behaviour becoming a teacher and abusing my assets as an older person with better knowledge and superiority to them etc it seems pretty promising - it's a vigilante who thoroughly lopsides the situation... i wouldn't go to a rough school i'd get stabbed probably lol.

Kotshka, my first inclination when reading your post was to deck gun your post with a real nasty response, but then I got to thinking.

You do make some cogent points. It is absolutely true that most bullies have something major wrong at home, and for many, school is the best they will ever achieve. This is sad, and I agree something should be done about it.

But your attitude towards bullying victims is somewhat scary honestly. I feel like your marginalizing the pain that bullying induces. Imagine if I told a rape victim "Oh well, with some help you'll get over the rape, but right now I"m focusing on why the guy raped you." Your post basically suggests that we sit back, become victims and then hope there is help, and live with the effects of bullying for the rest of our lives. Maybe some people can walk away from it, but it haunts others, and kills others.

Years of bullying can destroy someone, it can leave scars that never heal.

You must have been very lucky because I don't know a lot of bullying victims who act like it was nothing.

Your post suggests a disturbing trend in America, victim blaming.

I would suggest three ways to stop bullying.

1.) Let the bullied fight back. If your bullied, and you punch the bully, don't suspend the victim.

2.) Get tough on bullies. Real punishments.

3.) Help to identify the underlying causes of the bully acting out.

I don't mind if you do 3, but not until you do 1 and 2.

Maybe I wasn't clear enough in my post. I was bullied, I did suffer, and I was one of the lucky ones in that I am okay now as an adult. I am well aware that bullying victims are not always okay and I certainly didn't mean that we should all be giving hugs to bullies and ignoring their victims. When we see bullying at my school, we absolutely make sure to help the victims in any way necessary and that the bullies themselves face consequences.

My point was not that bullying is okay or excusable. My point was just that those of us who are or have been victims go very quickly to an "us vs. them" mentality and forget that the bullies are people too. It is not alright for them to do what they do, but if you punish them for bullying, they will NOT STOP bullying. That does NOT work. And they are NOT evil. Anyone who lived through what they have is likely to act the same way that they do. My school is not a high school and the kids are much younger than you might be thinking of, but some of them are already becoming bullies and we can very clearly see that nothing we can do in the school will save them from a life full of violence and trouble.

Maybe a specific real-life example will help.

There is a boy in my class who is clearly abused by his father. Even when the dad picks him up from school, we can see it. This boy would do anything in the world to make his father happy. He used to work hard so he would have something to show his dad to make him proud, but no matter what it was, the dad would toss it aside with a cruel remark and a girl's name for his son, give him a look that frightened *me* and order him to hurry the f**k up and get ready to leave or else.

At first we thought that was just very unfortunate, but over time we've started to realize that it goes much deeper than that. The boy is frighteningly thin and we suspect he's not being fed enough. He's always covered in bruises that he never complains about and tries to hide. If you walk toward him with an angry look on your face he covers his head and cowers. When you try to talk to him, he doesn't make eye contact. If he attacks another kid and we tell him to go sit at the table and calm down until we're ready to solve the problem (it's a Montessori school and the children must always acknowledge what they've done and apologize once they've calmed down), he runs away, and he runs faster than me. When you catch him and try to pick him up, he goes completely limp. If you've never tried to pick up a child who goes "boneless" and then squirms around, it's almost impossible to pick them up and move them without injuring them. He knows that he will get hurt but he doesn't care, because this pain is less than the pain he expects to feel at the hands of adults. In fact, he shows a lot of signs of sexual abuse and we are believing more and more that his father is molesting him.

We can't prove anything, so we can't stop the abuse. This boy is deeply suffering. Anyone who suffered at the hands of a bully, imagine that the bully was your own father. Instinctively you loved him and wanted his approval, but all he did was hurt you from the day you were born. Believe me, you can't imagine what that does to a child, and they don't just "grow out of it" or suddenly realize that their father is a bastard and change their ways. When that's all you know your whole life, you never learn anything else unless you get incredibly lucky and someone manages to reach you.

And how does this boy act in school? He attacks other kids. He doesn't bother trying to work because he knows that nothing he accomplishes there will ever be good enough to win his father's love. The only thing his father values is strength. So he tries to show his daddy how strong he is via violence and torture. He finds words that he knows will hurt the other kids and uses them incessantly. He pushes, hits, bites, kicks, shoves, steals work, tears up papers, knocks over constructions, and just generally destroys everything. So he spends most of his time sitting in the corner or even alone in a small room by himself. Do you think that helps the situation? Of course it doesn't! Punishment is all he's ever known.

Yes, we help the victims. Of course we do. The first priority whenever something goes wrong is to make sure the victim is okay and do whatever you have to do to fix the situation and help them. If they were older, that would include something like counseling and parent involvement where necessary. It's critical that they know they are not alone, it is not okay for them to be treated this way, it is okay to ask for help, and someone is there for them when they need it. I know that unfortunately not all teachers do this the right way, but in my school, no one will ever have to suffer the way many of us did growing up, and certainly we will do everything possible to help.

But what about the bully? What do we do with him? The overwhelming response I hear from all of you is PUNISH HIM. Give him a taste of his own medicine. CONSEQUENCES! Well where the hell do you think he learned all this stuff? There is NOTHING we can do that the boy's father doesn't already do every day. These punishments are MEANINGLESS and do absolutely NOTHING to fix the situation. He will not stop bullying just because he is punished for it. Never. Not a chance.

And you know what? When his dad comes to pick him up and he says he spent half the day being punished for attacking other kids, his dad doesn't call him a girl's name.

If you want to actually prevent future victims of a bully, the only solution is to teach him (or her) that the way they are doing things is not their only option. That they can get love and approval by being something other than aggressive and "strong." An eye for an eye really does just make the whole world blind, guys. Reacting to violence with more violence just reinforces the idea that violence is the solution.

On the other hand, we can't just let the kid get do these things freely without any consequences. So yes, he spends most of his time sitting in a chair somewhere "thinking about what he's done." And we teachers, once we're sure that everyone else is okay and no long-term damage is being done, have to meet with each other and discuss what to do. And so far, we have not found the answer. He's at school for 6 hours a day and at home with his father for the other 18. Nothing we can do will ever outweigh the influence of the father. We will keep trying, but in the end we are at a loss. If we can't find a way to help the bully, the list of victims will continue to grow longer. He'll grow up and learn new ways to hurt the ones around him to show he is the biggest and the strongest and try to feel like he's worth something, but he'll never succeed.

So if one of you guys really think you have the answer, go ahead. Become a teacher. Show me how it's done. Show me how to fix this.

I used to feel the same way as all of you. They hurt me, and they were never properly punished for it. I didn't do anything to deserve it, but they hurt me anyway, so they must be evil. They must be bad people. Well, what they did to me was not okay. But I can no longer look back at those people and think of them as evil, because now I can see the horrible shadow standing just behind them.

I'm sure that not every bully is the same as the one in my school. Probably some of them really do just need stricter boundaries or something. But be very, very careful about falling into the trap of considering them evil or inhuman, because you don't know what they've been through or why they're acting that way. Help the victims first. Then, try to prevent future victims by locating the source of the problem and trying to solve it. It's so easy to just lash out in violence at someone who's hurt us. It's much more difficult than that to actually change the situation.

I take your point that punishment might be merely adding to the trauma and abuse he receives at home. If this bully looks thin and hungry why doesn't any teacher give him something to eat? Or be a friend and mentor? Maybe if he had more positive influences and proper care he might not scar some other kids for life.

We do give him food (plenty of it and he eats a ton) and we are constantly trying to be a "friend" or mentor to him. We encourage him to do positive, constructive things, and shower him with praise when he succeeds. But at the end of the day, daddy is still coming to pick him up, and he will still be abused for doing constructive work and rewarded for aggression. We only have him for a small part of the day, and our approval will never matter nearly so much as his father's. In the end, he almost always refuses any of our positive or friendly advances. When we smile and offer him something to do he screams NO and runs off to cause more trouble.

We can give him snack and lunch, but that doesn't mean he's getting breakfast and dinner. We can tell him we think he's a good kid and we want to be his friend, but that doesn't mean anything compared to daddy coming to pick him up and not calling him a girl's name because today he proved that he was strong. Nothing we can do will ever matter as much as what his father does. Our approval is meaningless in comparison. We are not giving up and we are doing all we can, but after two years we're still not seeing improvement.

Again, if you think it's so simple to prevent bullying, go ahead, become a teacher, and try it yourself. If you find the answer, be sure to tell me, because I'd do just about anything to fix this situation, help this kid, and prevent a violent and ugly future for him and those around him.

EDIT: I think the only person who could fix this situation would be the father. But he's not going to change. We even had conferences with him and the family has been to a therapist to try to figure out why the boys (two brothers) are so aggressive. The therapist said it was clearly the dad causing this, and the dad said well that's too bad because I'm not going to change the way I raise my sons. I'm sure he was treated the same way by his father, causing him to become a bully himself. Who has the power to stop this cycle from continuing? If it were me I'd do it, but I sure as hell haven't found the answer yet.

You said he spends most of his time in a chair by himself. I think a teacher should go play catch one on one with him. Kids don't like just being talked to. Make a regular thing of it.

Clearly you are an expert and should become a teacher and take over my job. I'll go ahead and ignore the other 24 kids in my class so that I can play catch with one boy who screams and runs away whenever I try to approach him. Perfect solution, why didn't I think of that? Come to think of it, it's probably my fault that he's a bully. Every day when I try to sit and work with him or build something with him or play a game with him and he just hides his face and runs off to destroy something, I'm obviously not trying hard enough. Silly me relying on my years of experience with kids who've suffered abuse or have learning disabilities or developmental disorders, I should have just asked the internet!

Okay, I don't want to get locked in a hostile argument on a message board so I think I'm just going to bow out of this conversation now. I'm trying every day to deal with a difficult situation and grapple with the fact that I cannot help everyone, and some of these kids are going to have problems for the rest of their lives and there's nothing I can do to fix it. I've said what I wanted to say, made my original point as well as I could (that bullying is not as simple an issue as the victims tend to believe, and that teachers do not have the power to fix things that you might imagine). I'm sorry to everyone who has suffered from bullying, I have suffered from it myself, and I'm equally sorry to the bullies who never had a chance to become anything better, but sadly there just is not a simple solution. I need to stop thinking about this now because I've shed enough tears over it for the moment, watching these kids and feeling so powerless.

Poor you. I'd probably run away too.

I don't know what the statistics are, and perhaps you are right in that home situations may contribute to some children becoming bullies, but this doesn't necessarily mean that the home situation is abuse or neglect. It could just be lazy parenting without boundary setting etc. so I don't buy this theory that most or all bullies are victims of atrocities in their homes.

I was bullied, it scarred me badly. And I was also bullied in the workplace as an adult. So bullies making someone a victim, taking away their self-confidence, self worth and trust in others can set a pattern for someone's whole life. As others have said, bullies have caused children to commit suicide. I remember reading about one girl who committed suicide because her bullies victimised her because they were jealous that she was pretty. Not that most bullies will need a reason.

In the case of the boy whose story you quote, I can't believe you have no proof to be able to go to the proper authorities. You yourself say:

*he is too thin, hungry and obviously underfed
*he is covered in bruises
*a qualified therapist has stated his father is the cause of his childrens' violent behaviour (so there is clearly emotional abuse)
*he cowers when approached
*he has terrible behavioural issues that need investigation
*his behavioural pattern (or whatever it was) shows signs of sexual abuse
*you have witnessed his father being verbally abusive
*he is clearly frightened of his father

Surely all of this is enough?! How much more do you need?! In the UK social services would already have been involved - what are the guidelines in your country?

I would feel desperately sorry for any child suffering abuse in the home, but this doesn't mean all bullies are and such sweeping statements do make it seem as if you are feeling generally sorrier for the bullies than you are for the victims. Not all abused children become bullies, some may be withdrawn instead - and to top it all off, what if such a withdrawn abused child was bullied at school as well?!

We punish the bully all the time. We praise the bully all the time. They can't get their story straight. The only thing they are defending is teachers.

Alright, this is my last post here. I was trying to make a simple point about open-mindedness and compassion for other human beings and now it seems you are all on a witch hunt. I'm going to summarize my points one last time in the hopes that someone, anyone, will get the point I am trying to make, and realize that I'm not being a bully advocate here, just trying to show that there is more to the story than you might realize.

First off, whirlingmind, yes, in the UK or the USA we could probably get help for this boy, but I am living in central Europe. The police here don't come when called unless they feel like it, and there's absolutely nothing anyone can do about child abuse unless someone in the actual family goes to the police for help, or else we have hard evidence (photographs or video of the abuse itself rather than bruises which can be explained away by "boys being boys", or maybe a confession) PROVING that the kid is really being abused. If we call the police now, the most we could hope for is that they would go to their house and ask the boy if he's being abused. He would say no because he's scared and because he wants his daddy to love him. The father would assume that the police came because the kid ratted him out, and the home situation would get a hell of a lot worse for him.

itry2bpositive (ironic name by the way): we punish him when he breaks the rules and praise him when he does something good (and we always try to find small things to praise him for so that he can get some positive feedback and not just pain in his life). I don't see what's so contradictory about that. Also "poor you. i'd run away too" - sounds exactly like the kind of s**t bullies say. Nice to know you're so much better than them.

I have said all of the following things already; now, one more time and then you can all insult me all you want, because I'm not going to read it.

1. I do NOT condone bullying. Bullying is terrible. Bullying can ruin lives. The victims of bullies should be helped.
2. Bullies should not be allowed to continue their behavior and should face consequences for all harm they have done.
3. Bullies are not evil. They are messed up kids who need some sort of guidance. They might not all be abused, but they all have reasons to act the way they do, and while punishing them for their actions is usually necessary, it's NOT going to solve the real problem.
4. I've been dealing with this for years and I already have on my conscience the fates not only of the bully but of everyone he is going to hurt in the future. If there were a simple way to fix it, I would do so. My colleagues and I have been trying for years and nothing we try works. We all care deeply about all the kids at my school. We want to help them all. We all have to live with the fact that sometimes you can't save someone.

I'm doing my best to help as much as possible. What are any of you guys doing other than bitching on an internet forum and criticizing someone who's trying to help? If any of you are or have ever been teachers, please, tell me what you do or did at your school and whether it worked. Because if there's an option we haven't thought of at my school, I'm all ears. But believe me, if you can think of something just after reading a short forum post, you can bet your ass we've tried it years ago, and are probably still trying it, and it's not working.

I could take the easy way out, quit my job, get an easier one with less responsibility, and then come online and point fingers all over the place like you people are doing. But I'm not going to do that. I want to help these kids and I'm going to do my best. I am not always going to succeed. Anyone who dares to suggest that what I'm doing is not good enough can go right ahead and become a teacher and save the whole world, since you seem to think it's so damned easy. Let me know how that works out for you.

Some teachers are decent people and reach out to those from troubled backgrounds. Some are only interested in the popularity contest and add to the problems of victims. Whatever. Take your pro-teacher agenda and stick it wherever. I'm not interested.