A chimpanzee with human intelligence with genetic engineerin

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Dantac
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30 Nov 2012, 11:14 pm

Summer_Twilight wrote:
However, one question that remains in my mind as to whether a chimp can lock a list of vocabulary words into its brain and them learn to use a keyboard and put the words together. They already proved with Coco the gorilla and Chantek the orang that they could use sign language and also lie. So, I am wondering if you could teach a primate to use a computer keyboard to get a primate to tell you what they are thinking. However, what training could you use for that? Also, would also also include a bigger brain?


Bonobos (a different kind of chimp) understand spoken human language at the level of a 4 year old human. That is quite impressive. They can also communicate back with a form of sign language just like Koko.

Keyboard...no. That would require a highly complex understanding of symbols (letters are symbols) which is processed by the frontal cortex...of which chimps have an appalling small amount of. They can handle simple image->real object interaction like ball, water, cloud, river, etc.. but not breaking the word apart into letters and using a 24+ letter alphabet to combine into thousands of words.

Sign language used by apes/chimps for example is representative. One gesture = one thing or sensation (cold, hot,pain,etc). You wont see them using the human sign language to construct letter by letter words with hand signals unless its rote taught to them as a sequence representing a thing/feeling.



rabidmonkey4262
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01 Dec 2012, 9:36 am

Summer_Twilight wrote:
Science is so interesting. What I like about that video with the chimps is that he probably thinks in pictures like most of us Aspie's do. We also rely greatly on memory.

However, one question that remains in my mind as to whether a chimp can lock a list of vocabulary words into its brain and them learn to use a keyboard and put the words together. They already proved with Coco the gorilla and Chantek the orang that they could use sign language and also lie. So, I am wondering if you could teach a primate to use a computer keyboard to get a primate to tell you what they are thinking. However, what training could you use for that? Also, would also also include a bigger brain?

"Proved" is an overstatement. In order to definitively prove that apes can communicate by sign language, you have to make a clear distinction between operant conditioning and genuine symbolic thought. No scientist has yet been able to come up with a purely objective conclusion. That means that Koko as well as other apes could simply be learning the same way dogs learn. For example, I can easily teach a dog to point to the number 1. That does not mean that he understands that the 1 is a symbol and I highly doubt he'd attach any intrinsic meaning to the number. To him it's simply a shape that gets him a treat ever time he points to it. If you teach the number 1 to a human child, they will very quickly figure out that it can be used to form all sorts of numbers. Not only that, they will intuitively understand that the symbol 1 refers to anything that appears alone, e.g. 1 apple, 1 car, 1 ant... You cannot prove that non-human apes have this intuitive ability. Sure, you can teach numbers and pictures to a chimpanzee, but they do not understand symbols enough to be able to manipulate them without very extensive training. Even then, many apes simply just never "get it."

Humans have a natural ability to understand and manipulate symbols from a very young age. In contrast, non-human apes have to be actively taught how to use symbols. Researchers work with them for several hours a day. Even then, there is no proof that they actually understand the concept of representative thought. With a human child, you don't have to give them loads of treats to get them to talk. They simply pick it up spontaneously. Not only that, but they can construct sentences in a grammatical order without much formal training; they simply listen and learn. With chimpanzees and bonobos, there has yet to be conclusive evidence that they can pick up grammar. For example, a chimpanzee might be able to understand that the sound "cup" refers to that round cylindrical thing that is hollow inside. He may also understand that the sound "pencil" refers to the sharp pointy thing. If a chimpanzee observes you putting a pencil into a cup, he won't be able to form a coherent sentence describing your action, even after years of training. In contrast, a human child could easily say "you put the pencil in the cup." Even in that very simple sentence, the young human child has more intuitive grammatical abilities than an older chimp with years of training.


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rabidmonkey4262
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01 Dec 2012, 9:52 am

Dantac wrote:
Summer_Twilight wrote:
However, one question that remains in my mind as to whether a chimp can lock a list of vocabulary words into its brain and them learn to use a keyboard and put the words together. They already proved with Coco the gorilla and Chantek the orang that they could use sign language and also lie. So, I am wondering if you could teach a primate to use a computer keyboard to get a primate to tell you what they are thinking. However, what training could you use for that? Also, would also also include a bigger brain?


Bonobos (a different kind of chimp) understand spoken human language at the level of a 4 year old human. That is quite impressive. They can also communicate back with a form of sign language just like Koko.

Keyboard...no. That would require a highly complex understanding of symbols (letters are symbols) which is processed by the frontal cortex...of which chimps have an appalling small amount of. They can handle simple image->real object interaction like ball, water, cloud, river, etc.. but not breaking the word apart into letters and using a 24+ letter alphabet to combine into thousands of words.

Sign language used by apes/chimps for example is representative. One gesture = one thing or sensation (cold, hot,pain,etc). You wont see them using the human sign language to construct letter by letter words with hand signals unless its rote taught to them as a sequence representing a thing/feeling.

Dantac very eloquently said what I tried to say with about twice as many words. And yes, human language does require a much bigger brain. The human brain is about 1200-1500 cubic centimeters while the chimp brain hovers around 400cc. In order to be an animal capable of speech, you need a developed prefrontal cortex as well as robust language processing networks that span the temporal and frontal lobes.

Chimpanzees are actually pretty good at visual/spatial processing, which is why they're so adept at using tools. Even so, you won't see them combine two tools together to make a novel tool, and you won't see them using an artificially-modified tool to make another tool. These are two things that humans are capable of doing quite proficiently.


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thomas81
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01 Dec 2012, 12:07 pm

wtfid2 wrote:
what if we made a chimp as smart as a human allowing it to have the breathing control previously mentioned, and we also give it vocal chord surgery?


A chimp might not have the neurological 'plumbing' to operate said vocal chords.

If they could surgically implant a spider's web gland into me, it doesn't mean i could suddenly build webs.



ruveyn
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01 Dec 2012, 1:23 pm

thomas81 wrote:
wtfid2 wrote:
what if we made a chimp as smart as a human allowing it to have the breathing control previously mentioned, and we also give it vocal chord surgery?


A chimp might not have the neurological 'plumbing' to operate said vocal chords.

If they could surgically implant a spider's web gland into me, it doesn't mean i could suddenly build webs.


Correct. You would need a "program" to operate the gland.

ruveyn



rabidmonkey4262
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01 Dec 2012, 2:57 pm

thomas81 wrote:
wtfid2 wrote:
what if we made a chimp as smart as a human allowing it to have the breathing control previously mentioned, and we also give it vocal chord surgery?


A chimp might not have the neurological 'plumbing' to operate said vocal chords.

If they could surgically implant a spider's web gland into me, it doesn't mean i could suddenly build webs.
You need a highly-developed brain to process and use verbal information. It's arguable whether or not chimpanzees possess a Broca's area comparable to our own.
chimp study on asymmetry of Broca's area


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Dantac
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02 Dec 2012, 3:01 pm

wtfid2 wrote:
what if we made a chimp as smart as a human allowing it to have the breathing control previously mentioned, and we also give it vocal chord surgery?


The question would then by why bother? You'd end up with the equivalent of a 4 to 5 year old human child with twice the strength of a human adult.

Perhaps you could teach it black is a dreadful color and put them to work in the most mundane physical labor us alphas can't be bothered doing. :P :twisted: :wink:



Evinceo
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03 Dec 2012, 4:26 pm

thomas81 wrote:
Jitro wrote:
Would it be possible to create a chimpanzee with human intelligence with genetic engineering?


I don't think it would be desirable on ethical grounds. If a chimp had human sentience would it be fair to say that the chimp has acquired status equal to humans?

Would it not be cruel to a chimp to have human intelligence but be trapped in a chimps body, unable to speak or articulate itself in a human manner while being alienated from its own species?

Moreover whats the point? What would we gain?


A chimp's body is superior to a human's by most of the standards by which we judge human bodies.

I'd totally take a chimp body if the offer was out there-chimps are diesel.



Dantac
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03 Dec 2012, 11:21 pm

To get the equivalent of this:




Image

be this:

Image