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DarthMetaKnight
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27 Nov 2012, 2:46 pm

I keep asking different people what conservatives want and I keep getting a different answer.
Give me the whole story and the big picture.


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ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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27 Nov 2012, 2:53 pm

They want certain members of society to be as miserable as they can possibly be...



Trencher93
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27 Nov 2012, 2:58 pm

Generally, at the core, a conservative wants things to stay the same. They want to keep what they have and continue getting more. A liberal generally wants things to change. They want to get what others have because they're on the outside looking in.

The reason you get different answers is people want to conserve different things. Religious people want to conserve traditional values, economic people want to conserve who has the wealth, and so on. At the core, though, it's the same driving force behind each facet of conservativism. Liberals are similar. They want equality and a level society without extremes, and this works out across different facets of liberalism.



DarthMetaKnight
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27 Nov 2012, 3:14 pm

Trencher93 wrote:
Generally, at the core, a conservative wants things to stay the same.


They certainly don't care when the environment changes ... or when technology moves forward ... or when the Middle East changes ... or when things change in a way that they like.


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marshall
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27 Nov 2012, 3:15 pm

Trencher93 wrote:
Generally, at the core, a conservative wants things to stay the same. They want to keep what they have and continue getting more. A liberal generally wants things to change. They want to get what others have because they're on the outside looking in.

The reason you get different answers is people want to conserve different things. Religious people want to conserve traditional values, economic people want to conserve who has the wealth, and so on. At the core, though, it's the same driving force behind each facet of conservativism. Liberals are similar. They want equality and a level society without extremes, and this works out across different facets of liberalism.


The conservative gut instinct is that inequality and hierarchy stabilize society. They are scared that even minor attempts to prevent growing inequality and safeguard the most vulnerable of society is going to bring everyone down. They don't seem to realize that growing inequality is just as big of a threat to social stability.



ruveyn
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27 Nov 2012, 3:31 pm

ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo wrote:
They want certain members of society to be as miserable as they can possibly be...


False, bigoted and redolent with zero sum thinking.

There are kinds of "conservatives" The classical conservative is basically a libertarian. He believes in a State or Government with limited scope. The proper end of government is to keep the peace in the nation, defend against outside aggressors and to provide a peaceful means of settling disputes and punishing frauds or breaches of contract.

The more aristocratic or oligarchical form is a belief that the "better people" those of wealth and power are the proper stewards of the state. This view is somewhat discredited in the U.S. because of our individualist and egalitarian inclinations.

And then there is the "Crony Capitalist" who sees the government as a means of giving powerful corporations and influential groups (e.g. the Bilderbergers) the most prominent say in the governance of the State.

I think it is this last group that you dislike the most. I do too.

Mitt was insufferable in his lack of understanding the problems of people of limited means. Mitt the Clueless gave the impression that his sh*t doesn't stink but yours and mine do. This may be a false impression of the man (some people who know him claim he is a good fellow) but that is the vibe he was broadcasting to the public.

ruveyn



DarthMetaKnight
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27 Nov 2012, 3:33 pm

ruveyn wrote:
There are kinds of "conservatives" The classical conservative is basically a libertarian. He believes in a State or Government with limited scope. The proper end of government is to keep the peace in the nation, defend against outside aggressors and to provide a peaceful means of settling disputes and punishing frauds or breaches of contract.


Are you saying that libertarians are the real conservatives and "conservatives" are phony?


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ruveyn
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27 Nov 2012, 3:42 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
There are kinds of "conservatives" The classical conservative is basically a libertarian. He believes in a State or Government with limited scope. The proper end of government is to keep the peace in the nation, defend against outside aggressors and to provide a peaceful means of settling disputes and punishing frauds or breaches of contract.


Are you saying that libertarians are the real conservatives and "conservatives" are phony?


Yes, just about. The classical conservative position (going back to Mill and Spencer) is much closer to the libertarian position than the so-called conservative that constitute the bulk of the Republican Party. Most of the so-called conservative are pro Crony Capitalism which will lead (if it already has not) to much dissatisfaction of among "ordinary folk". those whose means are limited. This set of people has been betrayed by outsourcing of value added jobs to third world countries, policies that discourage scientific innovation etc. The Cronies are, by and large, rather reactionary and their cluelessness has given the Statist neo-fascists (so-called liberals) on the left a virtually unopposed field in which they may do their mischief.

ruveyn



DarthMetaKnight
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27 Nov 2012, 3:44 pm

ruveyn wrote:
DarthMetaKnight wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
There are kinds of "conservatives" The classical conservative is basically a libertarian. He believes in a State or Government with limited scope. The proper end of government is to keep the peace in the nation, defend against outside aggressors and to provide a peaceful means of settling disputes and punishing frauds or breaches of contract.


Are you saying that libertarians are the real conservatives and "conservatives" are phony?


Yes, just about. The classical conservative position (going back to Mill and Spencer) is much closer to the libertarian position than the so-called conservative that constitute the bulk of the Republican Party. Most of the so-called conservative are pro Crony Capitalism which will lead (if it already has not) to much dissatisfaction of among "ordinary folk". those whose means are limited. This set of people has been betrayed by outsourcing of value added jobs to third world countries, policies that discourage scientific innovation etc. The Cronies are, by and large, rather reactionary and their cluelessness has given the Statist neo-fascists (so-called liberals) on the left a virtually unopposed field in which they may do their mischief.

ruveyn


If somebody wanted to bring back feudalism then how conservative would that person be? Would that person be more conservative than you?


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ruveyn
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27 Nov 2012, 4:00 pm

DarthMetaKnight wrote:
[

If somebody wanted to bring back feudalism then how conservative would that person be? Would that person be more conservative than you?


In todays terms I am NOT a conservative. I detest the statist trend in governance that goes all the way to the Woodrow Wilson administration. The intention of the Founders of our republic have been betrayed by their successors. We have been marching down the statist path (the very antithesis of federal government) since the Civil War and we have assimilated a neo-fascist ideology. It is not the fascism of Hitler or Mussolini. It is the smiling fascism of the government encroaching into every aspect of our lives. We are being gummed to death by the Nanny Government in Washington.

I hate it truly. Unfortunately I am a homeless waif in the current political scene.

ruveyn



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27 Nov 2012, 4:21 pm

It seems like "conservative" is a term with no meaning. Most "conservatives" want to conserve something but it's always something different. Some conservatives are also more regressive than conservative.


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27 Nov 2012, 4:43 pm

Typically, someone who chirps "I am a Conservative" is someone who watches Fox News for 10-14 hours per day.

Based upon the promises dished out during the last election, they want taxes that become perpetually lower (generally for the rich), a military budget that becomes perpetually more bloated, and immigrants to boot themselves out of the country.

They also want higher birth rates, prayer in school, and creationism to be taught to children. They also want everyone to go to church.

The want fewer people to be able to afford doctors, and more people to be bankrupted by medical expenses.

They don't want anyone speaking anything other than American English.

They want regulations on businesses to be eliminated.



thewhitrbbit
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27 Nov 2012, 4:51 pm

Your getting different answers because just like there are different types of liberals, there are different types of conservatives.

Religious or Social Conservatives want to promote religious values by legislating morality.

War Hawks are social conservatives who want to spread Christianity under the guise of liberating Muslim countries.

Fiscal conservatives advocate responsible spending, not over spending and living within means.

Liberty Conservatives are a newer group that is gaining ground.

These are socially liberal but fiscally conservative people. They don't care if two gays get married, or if a raped woman get's an abortion, but they do care that we are spending money we don't have and falling into debt. These tend to be younger conservatives.

Unfortunately, socially liberal fiscally conservative people get lumped in with the same social conservatives who give conservatives a bad name.



ooOoOoOAnaOoOoOoo
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27 Nov 2012, 4:52 pm

ArrantPariah wrote:
Typically, someone who chirps "I am a Conservative" is someone who watches Fox News for 10-14 hours per day.

Based upon the promises dished out during the last election, they want taxes that become perpetually lower (generally for the rich), a military budget that becomes perpetually more bloated, and immigrants to boot themselves out of the country.

They also want higher birth rates, prayer in school, and creationism to be taught to children. They also want everyone to go to church.

The want fewer people to be able to afford doctors, and more people to be bankrupted by medical expenses.

They don't want anyone speaking anything other than American English.

They want regulations on businesses to be eliminated.

That's so true. It's the Fox news component and Fox seems to feed people's misanthropic tendencies.



thewhitrbbit
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27 Nov 2012, 4:55 pm

You know I honestly see the same s**t tricks and crap on MSNBC that I do on Fox, just slanted differently.

I've given up on American news,

I go with BBC and Al Jazeera English.



marshall
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27 Nov 2012, 5:27 pm

Libertarians are just secular conservatives. They don't buy the religion stuff but they still believe the need for social hierarchy trumps basic fairness and human decency. That's why they lecture the sick, poor, and disabled about personal responsibility yet think giant bloated corporate robber barons who take in more than they know what to do with have zero responsibility for anyone but themselves and their company bottom line. They claim it's a position of principle, that they have nothing against sharing as long as it's "voluntary", yet strangely those extremely wealthy people who get indignant about paying taxes that might go to some poor, sick, or disabled person don't decide to increase their charity spending once they get their tax breaks. That seems to indicate the reality is they just don't want to give back in any meaningful way. They'd rather use their "generous" philanthropy to pay for giant skyscrapers, museums, and stadiums named after themselves. Those are much higher priorities. Now go ahead libertards, accuse me of "envy" because that's all you've got. :roll: