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eric76
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09 Dec 2012, 12:56 am

Oh, and here's the statement labeling the LRA (and others) as terrorists:

http://www.fas.org/irp/world/para/dos120601.html:

Quote:
PRESS STATEMENT
Philip T. Reeker, Deputy Spokesman
Washington, DC
December 6, 2001


Statement on the Designation of 39 Organizations on the USA PATRIOT Act�s �Terrorist Exclusion List�


To further protect the safety of the United States and its citizens, Secretary of State Colin L. Powell, in consultation with the Attorney General, on December 5 designated 39 groups as Terrorist Exclusion List (TEL) organizations under section 212 of the Immigration and Nationality Act, as amended by the new USA PATRIOT Act. By designating these groups, the Secretary has strengthened the United States� ability to exclude supporters of terrorism from the country or to deport them if they are found within our borders.

The campaign against terrorism will be a long one, using all the tools of statecraft. We are taking a methodical approach to all aspects of the campaign to eliminate terrorism as a threat to our way of life. This round of Terrorist Exclusion List designations is by no means the last. We will continue to expand the list as we identify and confirm additional entities that provide support to terrorists.

Terrorist Exclusion List Designees: December 5, 2001
Al-Ittihad al-Islami (AIAI)
Al-Wafa al-Igatha al-Islamia
Asbat al-Ansar
Darkazanli Company
Salafist Group for Call and Combat (GSPC)
Islamic Army of Aden
Libyan Islamic Fighting Group
Makhtab al-Khidmat
Al-Hamati Sweets Bakeries
Al-Nur Honey Center
Al-Rashid Trust
Al-Shifa Honey Press for Industry and Commerce
Jaysh-e-Mohammed
Jamiat al-Ta�awun al-Islamiyya
Alex Boncayao Brigade (ABB)
Army for the Liberation of Rwanda (ALIR) � AKA: Interahamwe, Former Armed Forces (EX-FAR)
First of October Antifascist Resistance Group (GRAPO) � AKA: Grupo de Resistencia Anti-Fascista Premero De Octubre
Lashkar-e-Tayyiba (LT) � AKA: Army of the Righteous
Continuity Irish Republican Army (CIRA) � AKA: Continuity Army Council
Orange Volunteers (OV)
Red Hand Defenders (RHD)
New People�s Army (NPA)
People Against Gangsterism and Drugs (PAGAD)
Revolutionary United Front (RUF)
Al-Ma�unah
Jayshullah
Black Star
Anarchist Faction for Overthrow
Red Brigades-Combatant Communist Party (BR-PCC)
Revolutionary Proletarian Nucleus
Turkish Hizballah
Jerusalem Warriors
Islamic Renewal and Reform Organization
The Pentagon Gang
Japanese Red Army (JRA)
Jamiat ul-Mujahideen (JUM)
Harakat ul Jihad i Islami (HUJI)
The Allied Democratic Forces (ADF)
The Lord's Resistance Army (LRA)

[End]



MakaylaTheAspie
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09 Dec 2012, 1:57 am

What...?

What the hell?


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09 Dec 2012, 11:15 am

eric76 wrote:

It's time for you to open your eyes and see the real world. I have seen no evidence that the US troops in Afghanistan or anywhere else are intentionally targeting and murdering children. But it is clearly the case that the Taliban and others of their ilk have no problem at all targeting and murdering children.

So wake up.


I was already familiar with those things, but like I said, I do not expect better of the Taliban. What I said was that I doubt that they have killed as many.

And it's kind of stupid for you to automatically dismiss everything the Young Turks say because you think they are biased. They are the only news network I've seen which is more accurate than the Onion (and I'm not exaggerating). If you look in the description box on YouTube you can click on where they got their sources, and in this case they have a lot of sources. I'd like to see you try to discredit every single one of them.

The US military has admitted to upwards of 300 civilian deaths in drone strikes on countries that we are not even at war with such as Pakistan and Qatar, but those numbers are actually very underrepresented because they classify every adult male in the strike zone as a militant, even if he is not armed. They target groups of people who look "suspicious" without even checking to see what they are doing. They have bombed funerals and weddings before.

Also, neither Afghanistan nor Iraq were invaded with good cause. The Taliban actually offered to hand Osama Bin Laden over if they were given evidence that he did the 9/11 attacks, but Bush invaded without giving them a chance because he didn't want to be seen as weak. In any case, invading them was a bad idea because Al Qaeda is a transnational organization, so taking out any one country does not hurt them, but bolsters their recruitment because people don't' like having their countries invaded and occupied. You can see that Obama got Osama with a very focused mission in Pakistan, and that the Afghan war had nothing to do with catching him. So in a sense, every single person who died as a result of the conflict in Afghanistan and Iraq can be laid at feet of the US government.

And I could talk about the genocide that the US government supported in Indonesia and Nicaragua, the hundreds of dictators that we prop(ed) up, the overthrow of the democratically elected government in Iran, and more. We actually created Al Qaeda, set up Saddam, Gaddafi, and Ahmadinejad's governments, and yet somehow we have amnesia about these things.



piroflip
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09 Dec 2012, 11:54 am

ShamelessGit wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oe2ScYDFAI

This video is about how children were deliberately killed with a drone strike. If you look you can find many more videos/articles about how the US has killed hundreds of civilians in countries we are not even at war with and has killed US civilians without trial. It makes me sick.

The US invades countries without cause and is responsible for millions of civilian deaths in the past several decades, many of them in countries we were never officially at war with. The scale of this crime is, although smaller than the Nazi atrocities, within the same order of magnitude. However, US citizens have made no serious effort to stop these atrocities from taking place, even though the punishment for doing so would be much less than it would have been in Nazi Germany (because the Nazis killed dissenters and the USA doesn't). This seems to me to indicate that US citizens are not even a fraction of an inch morally superior to German citizens under the Nazis. And yet we claim the moral high ground.


I've been saying this for years.

There is not a SCRAP of difference between the warmongering USA bully boys and Hitler's Germany.

You burned thousands of civilians alive in Vietnam but that was OK wasn't it.

When the Nazis did the same thing they were executed as war criminals.

Now let me see, where did Bin Laden get his weapons from when he was fighting the Russians?

Oh yes, that's right, the good ol USA.

Which country are you going to occupy by force next?

One day China will kick your John Wayne mentality butt and I hope I'm around to see it.

.



ruveyn
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09 Dec 2012, 1:07 pm

piroflip wrote:

There is not a SCRAP of difference between the warmongering USA bully boys and Hitler's Germany.


.


Where is the American version of Belsen and Ausschwitz located?

ruveyn



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09 Dec 2012, 1:43 pm

piroflip wrote:
ShamelessGit wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oe2ScYDFAI

This video is about how children were deliberately killed with a drone strike. If you look you can find many more videos/articles about how the US has killed hundreds of civilians in countries we are not even at war with and has killed US civilians without trial. It makes me sick.

The US invades countries without cause and is responsible for millions of civilian deaths in the past several decades, many of them in countries we were never officially at war with. The scale of this crime is, although smaller than the Nazi atrocities, within the same order of magnitude. However, US citizens have made no serious effort to stop these atrocities from taking place, even though the punishment for doing so would be much less than it would have been in Nazi Germany (because the Nazis killed dissenters and the USA doesn't). This seems to me to indicate that US citizens are not even a fraction of an inch morally superior to German citizens under the Nazis. And yet we claim the moral high ground.


I've been saying this for years.

There is not a SCRAP of difference between the warmongering USA bully boys and Hitler's Germany.

You burned thousands of civilians alive in Vietnam but that was OK wasn't it.

When the Nazis did the same thing they were executed as war criminals.

Now let me see, where did Bin Laden get his weapons from when he was fighting the Russians?

Oh yes, that's right, the good ol USA.

Which country are you going to occupy by force next?

One day China will kick your John Wayne mentality butt and I hope I'm around to see it.

.


Does this strike anyone else as delusional?
Maybe even hysterical?
:roll:


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eric76
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09 Dec 2012, 5:46 pm

ShamelessGit wrote:
eric76 wrote:

It's time for you to open your eyes and see the real world. I have seen no evidence that the US troops in Afghanistan or anywhere else are intentionally targeting and murdering children. But it is clearly the case that the Taliban and others of their ilk have no problem at all targeting and murdering children.

So wake up.


I was already familiar with those things, but like I said, I do not expect better of the Taliban. What I said was that I doubt that they have killed as many.

And it's kind of stupid for you to automatically dismiss everything the Young Turks say because you think they are biased. They are the only news network I've seen which is more accurate than the Onion (and I'm not exaggerating).


It's starting to make sense now. Anyone who thinks that the Onion is a reliable news network is clearly not thinking rationally. And to think that the only site that is better is what is clearly a biased propaganda site. that even goes beyond irrational.

Quote:
If you look in the description box on YouTube you can click on where they got their sources, and in this case they have a lot of sources. I'd like to see you try to discredit every single one of them.


I see one actual news source on the topic. It is http://www.militarytimes.com/news/2012/12/marine-taliban-kids-120312w. Instead of supporting the propaganda spewed by The Young Twit aka The Young Turk, it says that the children were not killed intentionally:

The Military Times wrote:
It wasn’t that simple, however. Three individuals hit were 12, 10 and 8 years old, leading the International Security Assistance Force in Kabul to say it may have “accidentally killed three innocent Afghan civilians.”

But a Marine official here raised questions about whether the children were “innocent.” Before calling for the M142 High Mobility Artillery Rocket System mission in mid-October, Marines observed the children digging a hole in a dirt road in Nawa district, the official said, and the Taliban may have recruited the children to carry out the mission.

...

There were 316 documented cases of underage recruitment in the war last year, most of them attributed to the Taliban and other armed groups like the Haqqani network, according to a U.N. report released in April. Eleven children, including an 8-year-old girl, were killed in Afghanistan last year carrying out suicide attacks, the report said.

....

An ISAF spokesman, Lt. Col. Jimmie Cummings, said insurgents continue to use children as suicide bombers and IED emplacers, even though Taliban leader Mullah Omar has ordered them to stop harming civilians.


In the event in question, there were two Taliban insurgents who were there. The reports seem to differ on whether the two insurgents were killed in the artillery strike or left the scene just before the strike cowardly leaving the children to be killed.

Furthermore, children digging holes in a road are not digging up cow/oxen patties or other kinds of dung. Cows/oxen/horses/sheep/goats/... do not dig holes, crap in the holes, and then cover them up. You don't gather dung by digging holes, you gather dung by picking up the dried dung off of the surface of the ground. If the kids were digging holes in the road, they were not looking for dung and to suggest otherwise is nothing but insane.

There was another link provided, but it was just to a blog that was using the report above to make absolutely false claims that the US is targeting kids. The US forces are targeting people who are making war against them. If it turns out that kids are being used to make war, that makes the kids legitimate targets no matter what you think.

Do you think that kids should be allowed to kill American soldiers and escape simply because they are kids? If a kid walks up to your brother or sister and kills them, are you going to pat the kid on the head and tell him that since he's a kid he should go home and not do that any more?

Quote:
Also, neither Afghanistan nor Iraq were invaded with good cause. The Taliban actually offered to hand Osama Bin Laden over if they were given evidence that he did the 9/11 attacks, but Bush invaded without giving them a chance because he didn't want to be seen as weak.


Coming from someone who thinks that the best news site is a propaganda site and the second best is a parody site, it's not surprising that you would think that the offer was legitimate and that the Taliban would have handed him over. For that matter, the Taliban did NOT offer to hand bin Laden over to the United States. The actual offer was that if the United States were to prove that bin Laden was behind the 9/11 attacks, then they would hand bin Laden over to a "neutral country".

If we accepted that offer from the Taliban, we would be insane. It is almost certain that no amount of proof would satisfy the Taliban and it would give bin Laden years of being able to run Al Queda and orchestrate more terrorist attacks against the Western World.

Quote:
In any case, invading them was a bad idea because Al Qaeda is a transnational organization, so taking out any one country does not hurt them, but bolsters their recruitment because people don't' like having their countries invaded and occupied. You can see that Obama got Osama with a very focused mission in Pakistan, and that the Afghan war had nothing to do with catching him. So in a sense, every single person who died as a result of the conflict in Afghanistan and Iraq can be laid at feet of the US government.


Nonsense. The war in Afghanistan drove Osama into very deep hiding. It certainly hobbled his ability to orchestrate terrorist attacks. And the notion that everyone who died in Afghanistan is our responsibility, that ranks up there with the notion that the Onion is some kind of news site.



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09 Dec 2012, 5:47 pm

Raptor wrote:
piroflip wrote:
ShamelessGit wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oe2ScYDFAI

This video is about how children were deliberately killed with a drone strike. If you look you can find many more videos/articles about how the US has killed hundreds of civilians in countries we are not even at war with and has killed US civilians without trial. It makes me sick.

The US invades countries without cause and is responsible for millions of civilian deaths in the past several decades, many of them in countries we were never officially at war with. The scale of this crime is, although smaller than the Nazi atrocities, within the same order of magnitude. However, US citizens have made no serious effort to stop these atrocities from taking place, even though the punishment for doing so would be much less than it would have been in Nazi Germany (because the Nazis killed dissenters and the USA doesn't). This seems to me to indicate that US citizens are not even a fraction of an inch morally superior to German citizens under the Nazis. And yet we claim the moral high ground.


I've been saying this for years.

There is not a SCRAP of difference between the warmongering USA bully boys and Hitler's Germany.

You burned thousands of civilians alive in Vietnam but that was OK wasn't it.

When the Nazis did the same thing they were executed as war criminals.

Now let me see, where did Bin Laden get his weapons from when he was fighting the Russians?

Oh yes, that's right, the good ol USA.

Which country are you going to occupy by force next?

One day China will kick your John Wayne mentality butt and I hope I'm around to see it.

.


Does this strike anyone else as delusional?
Maybe even hysterical?
:roll:


The only difference between what the USA does and what Germany did is that USA kills innocent civilians in other countries, whereas Germany killed its own civilians. The death toll is within the same order of magnitude (millions). It is factually correct that millions of civilians died in Vietnam and that the USA created Al Qaeda.



eric76
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09 Dec 2012, 6:10 pm

ShamelessGit wrote:
Raptor wrote:
piroflip wrote:
ShamelessGit wrote:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0oe2ScYDFAI

This video is about how children were deliberately killed with a drone strike. If you look you can find many more videos/articles about how the US has killed hundreds of civilians in countries we are not even at war with and has killed US civilians without trial. It makes me sick.

The US invades countries without cause and is responsible for millions of civilian deaths in the past several decades, many of them in countries we were never officially at war with. The scale of this crime is, although smaller than the Nazi atrocities, within the same order of magnitude. However, US citizens have made no serious effort to stop these atrocities from taking place, even though the punishment for doing so would be much less than it would have been in Nazi Germany (because the Nazis killed dissenters and the USA doesn't). This seems to me to indicate that US citizens are not even a fraction of an inch morally superior to German citizens under the Nazis. And yet we claim the moral high ground.


I've been saying this for years.

There is not a SCRAP of difference between the warmongering USA bully boys and Hitler's Germany.

You burned thousands of civilians alive in Vietnam but that was OK wasn't it.

When the Nazis did the same thing they were executed as war criminals.

Now let me see, where did Bin Laden get his weapons from when he was fighting the Russians?

Oh yes, that's right, the good ol USA.

Which country are you going to occupy by force next?

One day China will kick your John Wayne mentality butt and I hope I'm around to see it.

.


Does this strike anyone else as delusional?
Maybe even hysterical?
:roll:


The only difference between what the USA does and what Germany did is that USA kills innocent civilians in other countries, whereas Germany killed its own civilians. The death toll is within the same order of magnitude (millions). It is factually correct that millions of civilians died in Vietnam and that the USA created Al Qaeda.


Actually, it is factually correct that the Vietnamese government claimed that a couple of million civilians died in Vietnam. There is no evidence to actually back that up Less biased observers place the actual number at well under a million and outside of collateral damage from bombing the US is thought to be responsible for a small number. Also keep in mind that the United States was relatively late to the fight in Vietnam.

And remember that the US went out of the way to avoid killing civilians. For example, the bombing of Hanoi was quite limited. And those bombings were against military targets, not civilian targets. Remember that bombing civilian targets does little to win a war; the object is to destroy the other sides capabilities to fight the war.

And don't forget that unlike our opponents, the US aggressively goes after members of our military who commit war crimes. For example, Lt William Calley was tried and found guilty of murder for his part in directing the murder of civilians in My Lai. His commander tried to cover up the war crimes, but one of the soldiers who was told about the incident wrote letters about the crimes to the President, the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, and the Secretary of Defense. Those are the people who got the investigation going and pushed for justice.

I'm not going to hold my breath waiting for the Taliban to go after even one of their soldiers for his part in killing Afghanistan civilians.

Also, the US did NOT create al Qaeda. We did provide some support to Afghanistan fighters to help them kid the Soviets out of their country, but I do not think that any of that went to al Qaeda. I could be wrong on that issue. But I am quite certain that we had nothing to do with creating al Qaeda.



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09 Dec 2012, 6:10 pm

eric76 wrote:
ShamelessGit wrote:
This video is about how children were deliberately killed with a drone strike. If you look you can find many more videos/articles about how the US has killed hundreds of civilians in countries we are not even at war with and has killed US civilians without trial. It makes me sick.


What makes me sick is all the idiots out there who create massive lies and distort the truth in every way imaginable in order to spread the craziest propaganda one can imagine to push their own agendas.

And all the idiots who fall for the propaganda make me even sicker. The video was nothing but propaganda.

By the way, I understand that it was artillery, not a drone. Where did you read that it was a drone? They aren't the same thing.

Quote:
The US invades countries without cause and is responsible for millions of civilian deaths in the past several decades, many of them in countries we were never officially at war with.


That has to be the biggest lie I've heard in decades. Millions of civilian deaths in the past several decades? Come on. Do you really expect anyone to believe that?

If you can substantiate that the US has caused millions of civilian deaths in the last several decades, then please do so. If possible, list them by year and country and provide some kind of support for those ridiculous claims.


You don't even know what you're talking about. Please quit posting here.

The Young Turks cites all of their claims. You can look in the description box. I would like to see you try to discredit every single one of their sources on this event. And what do you think is real news? Fox?

Yes I will substantiate the "ridiculous" claims. There are so many cases that I do not even know where to begin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian ... d_reaction
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1978/ ... cent-wave/
http://www.the-philosopher.co.uk/whocar ... crimes.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... 93Iraq_war

And you can just google civilian deaths in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. A few hundred thousand died in every war as a result of US military action and that easily adds up to over a million. If you didn't know that then you're really ignorant.

And here are more goodies for you:
http://tinfoilpalace.eamped.com/2011/01 ... by-the-us/
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/19/world ... .html?_r=0
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/0 ... 20515.html
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/04 ... -in-yemen/



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09 Dec 2012, 6:12 pm

eric76 wrote:

Also, the US did NOT create al Qaeda. We did provide some support to Afghanistan fighters to help them kid the Soviets out of their country, but I do not think that any of that went to al Qaeda. I could be wrong on that issue. But I am quite certain that we had nothing to do with creating al Qaeda.


http://www.theinsider.org/news/article.asp?id=0228



eric76
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09 Dec 2012, 6:20 pm

We provided plenty of funds to bin Laden and others in Afghanistan to fight the Soviets and drive them out of the country. To the best of my knowledge, that funding ended when the Soviets left the country. After all, with the Soviets gone, why would we need to fund the resistance to them any more?

As I remember it, the Soviets left Afghanistan at about the time that al Qaeda was created.



eric76
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09 Dec 2012, 6:24 pm

ShamelessGit wrote:
eric76 wrote:
ShamelessGit wrote:
This video is about how children were deliberately killed with a drone strike. If you look you can find many more videos/articles about how the US has killed hundreds of civilians in countries we are not even at war with and has killed US civilians without trial. It makes me sick.


What makes me sick is all the idiots out there who create massive lies and distort the truth in every way imaginable in order to spread the craziest propaganda one can imagine to push their own agendas.

And all the idiots who fall for the propaganda make me even sicker. The video was nothing but propaganda.

By the way, I understand that it was artillery, not a drone. Where did you read that it was a drone? They aren't the same thing.

Quote:
The US invades countries without cause and is responsible for millions of civilian deaths in the past several decades, many of them in countries we were never officially at war with.


That has to be the biggest lie I've heard in decades. Millions of civilian deaths in the past several decades? Come on. Do you really expect anyone to believe that?

If you can substantiate that the US has caused millions of civilian deaths in the last several decades, then please do so. If possible, list them by year and country and provide some kind of support for those ridiculous claims.


You don't even know what you're talking about. Please quit posting here.


Kiss my ass.

Quote:
The Young Turks cites all of their claims. You can look in the description box. I would like to see you try to discredit every single one of their sources on this event. And what do you think is real news? Fox?

Yes I will substantiate the "ridiculous" claims. There are so many cases that I do not even know where to begin.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Indonesian ... d_reaction
http://www.thecrimson.com/article/1978/ ... cent-wave/
http://www.the-philosopher.co.uk/whocar ... crimes.htm
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_Sta ... 93Iraq_war

And you can just google civilian deaths in Vietnam, Iraq, and Afghanistan. A few hundred thousand died in every war as a result of US military action and that easily adds up to over a million. If you didn't know that then you're really ignorant.

And here are more goodies for you:
http://tinfoilpalace.eamped.com/2011/01 ... by-the-us/
http://www.nytimes.com/2012/07/19/world ... .html?_r=0
http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/03/0 ... 20515.html
http://www.foxnews.com/politics/2012/04 ... -in-yemen/


You seem to have the highly irrational belief that if the US provided any support to any regime at any time, then it is somehow responsible for the atrocities committed by that regime.

ShamelessGit wrote:
Remember, I'm a dumbass


That is abundantly clear.



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09 Dec 2012, 6:36 pm

eric76 wrote:
You seem to have the highly irrational belief that if the US provided any support to any regime at any time, then it is somehow responsible for the atrocities committed by that regime.



No, but when the USA explicitly tells Saddam to invade Iran, or when the US completely ignores genocide taking place in an allied regime that we helped put in power immediately before (Indonesia), or even funds the government as it is committing genocide (Nicaragua), then it is responsible.

And what I meant by saying that the Onion is more accurate than most other news networks is that most news networks are so absurd that they cannot be parodied.



eric76
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09 Dec 2012, 7:07 pm

ShamelessGit wrote:
eric76 wrote:
You seem to have the highly irrational belief that if the US provided any support to any regime at any time, then it is somehow responsible for the atrocities committed by that regime.



No, but when the USA explicitly tells Saddam to invade Iran


What? The USA told Saddam to invade Iran? When was this?

Cites please.

Note about cites: It is not enough to just list a bunch of links to various web sites. You need to include the link as well as either applicable quotes from the web site that you wish to highlight or a summary of what is at the web site that supports your case. Merely posting a bunch of links is a mark of a rather naive amateur. If you can't bother with actually providing details, then you might as well not even bother.


Quote:
or when the US completely ignores genocide taking place in an allied regime that we helped put in power immediately before (Indonesia), or even funds the government as it is committing genocide (Nicaragua), then it is responsible.


That's not the way it works. By your logic, if someone on welfare robs a convenience store, than the robbery is the fault of the US, not the robber.

Quote:
And what I meant by saying that the Onion is more accurate than most other news networks is that most news networks are so absurd that they cannot be parodied.


What you can count on about the Onion is that it only tells as much truth as is necessary to make the fiction believable. And that doesn't generally take all that much truth.

Believing the Onion to be at all reliable as a news source certainly makes it understandable how you can actually believe the propaganda that you are pushing here.