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GGPViper
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14 Dec 2012, 4:59 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Bodies aren't even cold and we already have the vultures out to pick the bones dry to push their own ideological agenda. I don't even want to read or listen to it right now, it's so tired and pathetic.

Obama tearing up is interesting. Does he tear up when he bombs a schoolhouse in Pakistan?


Umm, Q.E.D.

You are pushing your own ideological agenda by comparing the current school shooting to the US military actions in Pakistan...



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14 Dec 2012, 5:05 pm

A reaction to Obama's crocodile tears



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14 Dec 2012, 5:06 pm

Jacoby wrote:
Bodies aren't even cold and we already have the vultures out to pick the bones dry to push their own ideological agenda. I don't even want to read or listen to it right now, it's so tired and pathetic.


You're right, we should wait until the immediate emotion of this wears off so that we can discuss this when the concept of innocent children dying needlessly can be conciously or sub-conciously dismissed as a "mere" abstraction or a statistically "insignificant" issue.

Every day we wait to do something about this is a day that children and other potential innocent victims are being exposed to some unnecessary level of risk. Why would we want to wait?

Jacoby wrote:
Obama tearing up is interesting. Does he tear up when he bombs a schoolhouse in Pakistan?


I certainly hope he does, but on the other hand, even in an abstract way he's ultimately responsible for the safety of every American. he has no such charge when it comes to the safety of Pakistanis.



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14 Dec 2012, 5:22 pm

Obama had no hand in the evil acts today in Connecticut. He is no more responsible for it as you or I are, we don't yet know the story of this shooter although it seems to fit that unfortunate profile.

The responsibility for who we kill with drones overseas in illegal wars we shouldn't be fighting tho falls squarely on the shoulders of Barack Obama. This is the same government who thought the killing of 500,000 Iraqi children "was worth the price" to put the pressure on Saddam back in the 90s.



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14 Dec 2012, 5:27 pm

vermontsavant wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
UnLoser wrote:
PM wrote:
I'll give it....6 hours before I hear a politician say the term "Assualt Weapons Ban".


Question: why do we need "assault weapons"? What place does assaulting have in civilized society? Why can't we just have weak handguns?

"Assault weapon" is a political term, and the notion that you assault people with it is propaganda aimed at very simple minds that was repeated until many no longer questioned it. There is no special feature that can define them, and there isn't a single design that can't be used for hunting, recreation, or personal defense. Instead, it is assumed that if you have enough [largely] cosmetic features from a list on a gun, that somehow that makes it bad. For example: in California, the legislature banned (but did not confiscate) the AR-15 a long time ago. But after a court battle that created a loophole, there are now dozens of parts and different configurations that can make the AR-15 legal to buy, build, and own here again and the legislature is having trouble figuring out how to ban this since these ARs do the same thing as the rifles that were never banned. The bullets are the same too-all bullets "assault weapons" shoot are useable in any type of rifle and the bullet designs available for them are found in almost all other rifle calibers. The bullets most designs shoot are significantly less powerful than the most common deer hunting calibers (but still can be used either for deer or smaller game), and in many cases will even break up in home walls easier than most handgun bullets.

Oh, and some of those "weak" handguns are more powerful than "assault" rifles.
what hand gun is more powerfull than a AR15 in 5.6 Nato.

There's a lot to catch up on, so I'll address this first:
.41 Magnum
.44 Magnum
.45 Colt
.454 Casull
.460 Smith & Wesson Magnum
.480 Ruger
.50 Action Express
.500 Smith & Wesson Magnum

This list is for the more commonly available rounds and is based purely on kinetic energy. If I included less common rounds based it on more detailed ballistic properties, the list would have been much longer and would have included more handgun rounds designed primarily for semiautomatics. Also, there are rifle rounds that have found popularity in hunting revolvers as well.


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14 Dec 2012, 7:40 pm

ScrewyWabbit wrote:
Raptor wrote:
mds_02 wrote:
Nice. Hear of a shooting and the first things anyone thinks to say is "oh crap, they're gonna try to take my guns." As it happens, I support the second amendment. But when this is the pro-gun side's first reaction to a shooting, is it any wonder that the anti-gun folks see them as a bunch of nuts who care more about their weapons than about, y'know, their fellow human beings?


It's the fact that every time there's a shooting the cry goes out for more gun control. And I for one am not interested in what the antis think of me.


You support a position that enables people to massacre children. Forget what the "antis" think of you, how about what your god will think of you when its time to judge?


Quote:
You support a position that enables people to massacre children.

So by being pro-gun I'm a massacre enabler? Gee, how many times have I heard that…. :roll:

Quote:
Forget what the "antis" think of you, how about what your god will think of you when its time to judge?

My God would be more appalled by the opportunists that will use the victims in this incident as poster boys for their anti-gun agenda.


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14 Dec 2012, 8:12 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:

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I like that whenever there is a shooting. The gun advocates seem to be the most worried about the event. As if they are more concerned about the tragedy of them losing their guns.

Could it be that we’ve learned lessons on this from long history?
Well, as least we are capable of learning from history.
BTW: I won’t be losing any of what already belongs to me.


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14 Dec 2012, 8:30 pm

John_Browning wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
John_Browning wrote:
UnLoser wrote:
PM wrote:
I'll give it....6 hours before I hear a politician say the term "Assualt Weapons Ban".


Question: why do we need "assault weapons"? What place does assaulting have in civilized society? Why can't we just have weak handguns?

"Assault weapon" is a political term, and the notion that you assault people with it is propaganda aimed at very simple minds that was repeated until many no longer questioned it. There is no special feature that can define them, and there isn't a single design that can't be used for hunting, recreation, or personal defense. Instead, it is assumed that if you have enough [largely] cosmetic features from a list on a gun, that somehow that makes it bad. For example: in California, the legislature banned (but did not confiscate) the AR-15 a long time ago. But after a court battle that created a loophole, there are now dozens of parts and different configurations that can make the AR-15 legal to buy, build, and own here again and the legislature is having trouble figuring out how to ban this since these ARs do the same thing as the rifles that were never banned. The bullets are the same too-all bullets "assault weapons" shoot are useable in any type of rifle and the bullet designs available for them are found in almost all other rifle calibers. The bullets most designs shoot are significantly less powerful than the most common deer hunting calibers (but still can be used either for deer or smaller game), and in many cases will even break up in home walls easier than most handgun bullets.

Oh, and some of those "weak" handguns are more powerful than "assault" rifles.
what hand gun is more powerfull than a AR15 in 5.6 Nato.

There's a lot to catch up on, so I'll address this first:
.41 Magnum
.44 Magnum
.45 Colt
.454 Casull
.460 Smith & Wesson Magnum
.480 Ruger
.50 Action Express
.500 Smith & Wesson Magnum

This list is for the more commonly available rounds and is based purely on kinetic energy. If I included less common rounds based it on more detailed ballistic properties, the list would have been much longer and would have included more handgun rounds designed primarily for semiautomatics. Also, there are rifle rounds that have found popularity in hunting revolvers as well.
i am aware of all those guns and that rifles are often chambered for handguns.
i had venison in a balslmic vinagerette sauce for dinner and i am a reloader and killed this deer with ammo i made,so dont talk to me like im stupid.

comparing single action revolver cartridges that fire really big bullets at low velocities that would likely go right through what ever they hit to rifles that fire small caliber yet heavy grain weight with high sectional density bullets at 3000fps that rapidly expand on impact.especialy ones that are semi automatic,i just dont see a comparison.


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14 Dec 2012, 8:56 pm

vermontsavant wrote:

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i had venison in a balslmic vinagerette sauce for dinner and i am a reloader and killed this deer with ammo i made,so dont talk to me like im stupid.

You've already stated in a roundabout way that AR-15's and/or thier owners cause crime so it leaves one to wonder what you're up to....
One of those legitimate sporting use yahoo's?


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14 Dec 2012, 9:00 pm

From what I read, it sounds as if he was a loner and disturbed, as well as did not have any friends.

On a second note, instead of banning guns (which have their uses), why don't we ban toxic medicines like ritalin, Prozac, etc. which have very negative effects on a person's system? Some of those medicines are worse than cocaine, yet they are legal. Why? :?



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14 Dec 2012, 9:05 pm

zacb wrote:
From what I read, it sounds as if he was a loner and disturbed, as well as did not have any friends.

On a second note, instead of banning guns (which have their uses), why don't we ban toxic medicines like ritalin, Prozac, etc. which have very negative effects on a person's system? Some of those medicines are worse than cocaine, yet they are legal. Why? :?


Quote:
Some of those medicines are worse than cocaine, yet they are legal. Why?

Pharmaceutical companies make fortunes off of them for one thing. Big money is always a motivator, right or wrong be damned.


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14 Dec 2012, 9:08 pm

Raptor wrote:
vermontsavant wrote:
Quote:
i had venison in a balslmic vinagerette sauce for dinner and i am a reloader and killed this deer with ammo i made,so dont talk to me like im stupid.

You've already stated in a roundabout way that AR-15's and/or thier owners cause crime so it leaves one to wonder what you're up to....
One of those legitimate sporting use yahoo's?
i have never said AR15 owners cause crime.but im not interested in them


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zacb
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14 Dec 2012, 9:12 pm

So shouldn't we question the motivations behind banning something? :wink:



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14 Dec 2012, 9:20 pm

ScrewyWabbit wrote:
PM wrote:
ScrewyWabbit wrote:
PM wrote:
UnLoser wrote:
PM wrote:
I'll give it....6 hours before I hear a politician say the term "Assualt Weapons Ban".


Question: why do we need "assault weapons"? What place does assaulting have in civilized society? Why can't we just have weak handguns?


The term "Assault Weapon" is used as a scare tactic to refer to any weapon that is a threat to the power of the politicians. In other words, anything that discharges an explosive projectile. "Assault" when referring to a weapon is simply military terminology. "Need" matters not, it's more or less an issue of personal liberty. The argument of the pro-gun lobby is if you want a certain type of weapon, you should be able to have it.


While I agree with you that the term "assault weapon" is a scare tactic, gun advocates use similar tactics - instead of publicly arguing about "personal liberty", they argue that guns are needed for self-defense and for sporting / hunting. And this is where they fall apart, because against animals even a semi-automatic weapon is by any reasonable measure complete overkill, and the only threats that justify needing some of these weapons for self-defense are if the people you might be defending yourselves from have similar weapons.


I disagree with the pro-lobby ignoring personal liberty, and I stay with the personal liberty argument as I am simply a collector that shoots paper. However, you do have the right to self-defense against any threat. As for hunting, I have no desire to kill anything that is not trying to kill me.


Quote:
I agree, you do have the right to self-defense against any threat. If you are in immediate danger of deadly force being used against you, you can pre-empt that with deadly force of your own. I've got no problem with that.

According to another post you think I should try and appease the antis; the ones that want to remove that capability from law abiding citizens

Quote:
On the other hand, if you aren't in any immediate danger but wish to prepare yourself against some threat that might materialize in the future, I think that there must be some sort of reasonable belief that there's a likelihood that such a threat might actually materialize.

The possibility is always present. More so in some areas and scenarios than others but it's always possible.

Quote:
Also, while I believe in proportionate use of force, at some point there's no point going beyond "mere" deadly force. Do you need to "outgun" someone when your gun can kill them just as easily as their gun can kill you?

The purpose is to neutralize the opponent quickly for what should be obvious reasons, not give them a sporting chance.

Quote:
So I'm not sure why people seem to feel the need to equip themselves with machine guns and other forms of extreme heavy weaponry. Especially when, if we actually had real gun control laws, it would reduce the likelihood of all these perceived threats.

Oh please. :roll:
Where have you seen people packing machineguns around for self defense, Afghanistan?
What is real gun control? Is there such a thing as artificial gun control?
And how would it reduce the likelihood of anything other than creating a new class of felon and leaving law abiding citizens to the wolves?

Maybe you should go back and read some of the old threads on gun control and see how they've panned out. You're headed for the same fate.


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Last edited by Raptor on 15 Dec 2012, 1:54 am, edited 1 time in total.

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14 Dec 2012, 10:23 pm

Raptor wrote:
Where have you seen people packing machineguns around for self defense, Afghanistan?
What is real gun control? Is there such a thing as artificial gun control?
And how would it reduce the likelihood of anything other than creating a new class of felon and leaving law abiding citizens to the wolves?


Suddenly enacting a ban on certain types of guns might have the effect of putting law-abiding gun owners on unequal footing with violent criminals(although I doubt it would make enough of a difference to effect the death statistics), but don't try to pretend that well-implemented gun control doesn't drastically reduce the rate of gun-related death and injury. There are obviously ways to implement gun control without leaving people to the wolves. If a sudden ban on certain guns would cause problems, then they could implement it over a period of many years with a cautious, intelligent approach.

My opinion is that guns have very valid uses for hunting, self-defense, and recreation. But I think there should be limits. I don't see any real reason to allow guns with a fast rate of fire and powerful rounds that make it easy to massacre dozens of people.



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14 Dec 2012, 10:43 pm

OliveOilMom wrote:
Gun laws do not prevent people from having guns. When I lived in the DC metro area for close to a year with my husband, he told me that guns were illegal there. I still brought the .357 I had with me and carried it in my purse. I had a permit in Alabama, and carried legally down here, but up there it was a crime. I carried it anyway. I'd rather be tried by 12 than carried by 6.


By the same logic, laws cannot prevent the outlaws from obtaining and using bombs and poison gas and nuclear weapons...