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Vexcalibur
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01 Jan 2013, 7:06 am

TheValk wrote:
I know some personally, and I assure you they haven't tucked away any large sums of money since they wouldn't have anywhere to get it in the first place.

It is not like their jobs are any useful anyway. Why care about reverends going poor when we do not care about say Beeper salesmen going poor?

All people with low income jobs still have to pay taxes. I do not find any relevance in the "they win so little" argument.



Anyway, let me repeat myself. These petitions are not about taxing Religious charities. If a Religious charity can prove itself to be one going through all the standards that secular charitiers have to do, then that's ok. These petitions are agains the charlatans. If your reverends can really prove that they do ton of charity work and win very little out of that, then they will keep their charity privileges.

But let us stop assuming that Church = should not pay taxes by default. Also, they should step their nose off politics if they want to get away with not paying taxes.


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01 Jan 2013, 7:37 am

John_Browning wrote:
Tequila wrote:
Religious establishments should get no more special treatment than any other company.

It's not a company, it's a non-profit.

What does non profit mean?
Image
Does it mean no one in the organization gets paid.



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01 Jan 2013, 8:06 am

I can top that

[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jYNHDMXuuAQ[/youtube]



TheValk
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01 Jan 2013, 10:07 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
TheValk wrote:
I know some personally, and I assure you they haven't tucked away any large sums of money since they wouldn't have anywhere to get it in the first place.

It is not like their jobs are any useful anyway. Why care about reverends going poor when we do not care about say Beeper salesmen going poor?

All people with low income jobs still have to pay taxes. I do not find any relevance in the "they win so little" argument.



Anyway, let me repeat myself. These petitions are not about taxing Religious charities. If a Religious charity can prove itself to be one going through all the standards that secular charitiers have to do, then that's ok. These petitions are agains the charlatans. If your reverends can really prove that they do ton of charity work and win very little out of that, then they will keep their charity privileges.

But let us stop assuming that Church = should not pay taxes by default. Also, they should step their nose off politics if they want to get away with not paying taxes.


Luckily, we don't have to ask you for measurement of what is "useful" and what is not.

I do also happen to think that one can't serve god and mammon at the same time, but members of religious institutions have the same basic civic right of being involved in politics, and if you have a problem with that... well, that's your problem.



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01 Jan 2013, 10:57 am

Vexcalibur wrote:
It is not like their jobs are any useful anyway. Why care about reverends going poor when we do not care about say Beeper salesmen going poor?

All people with low income jobs still have to pay taxes. I do not find any relevance in the "they win so little" argument.


You are comparing apples to oranges, Churches or religious organizations are operated under 501(c)3 tax guidelines, in other words, they operate under Non-Profit. Churches are not businesses, they are strictly ran by a un-paid volunteer group of people. I know this to be true, because I actually interned at a Church myself.

Churches operate primarily upon tithes and offerings, people willingly not obligated to support the financial infrastructure of the church.
On top of that, giving money to charity, or the church is a taxable write-off. At least, for now it is.

Best Regards,

Jake


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AgentPalpatine
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01 Jan 2013, 11:18 am

NAKnight wrote:
You are comparing apples to oranges, Churches or religious organizations are operated under 501(c)3 tax guidelines, in other words, they operate under Non-Profit. Churches are not businesses, they are strictly ran by a un-paid volunteer group of people. I know this to be true, because I actually interned at a Church myself.


Jake, when you say people are strictly unpaid, do you mean the controlling board (or leadership) or do you mean clergy and staff?


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Vexcalibur
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01 Jan 2013, 3:55 pm

NAKnight wrote:
You are comparing apples to oranges, Churches or religious organizations are operated under 501(c)3 tax guidelines,
In case I haven't said this yet. Because apparently I haven't. This is the whole point of the discussion. The assumption that just because it is a church or religious organization it is a non-profit.

Non-church non-profits need to do a lot more paper work to prove their non-profit status. That's the reason for the IRS lawsuits.

This is to challenge the double standard. Religious non-profits and churches should be subjected to the same standards as non-religious ones to apply. And if they are not, then they must pay taxes like any other non-profit.

Quote:
in other words, they operate under Non-Profit. Churches are not businesses, they are strictly ran by a un-paid volunteer group of people.
This is the problem. Some of your churches are really businesses. For example, a dude wanting to sell his bookseller self-help compendion may spend all his time making feel good speeches and does more work than some teleevangelists out there.

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I know this to be true, because I actually interned at a Church myself.


If the church you interned is a real non-profit and not a business, then it would only be affected by my request in that you might need to do more paper work than usual (same as a non-church non-profit).

Your anecdote is worth 0 dollars. Your partial experience with one church of one xtian denomination does is not really proof that all Christian churches out there are so honest and have so unpaid people working there.

TheValk wrote:
Luckily, we don't have to ask you for measurement of what is "useful" and what is not.
Maybe you should begin to, because it seems that I am much better at doing that than you are.

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I do also happen to think that one can't serve god and mammon at the same time, but members of religious institutions have the same basic civic right of being involved in politics, and if you have a problem with that... well, that's your problem.
Clerics have the same right as I to get involved in politics. But when they do so they MUST lose their tax privileges. Turns out this is not only an opinion of mine, but actual US law (and similar laws apply in many other countries). I think it may be out of a concept called "separation between something and something", hmnn I think one of the somethings was "state". But I don't remember correctly.


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NAKnight
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01 Jan 2013, 10:27 pm

AgentPalpatine wrote:
NAKnight wrote:
You are comparing apples to oranges, Churches or religious organizations are operated under 501(c)3 tax guidelines, in other words, they operate under Non-Profit. Churches are not businesses, they are strictly ran by a un-paid volunteer group of people. I know this to be true, because I actually interned at a Church myself.


Jake, when you say people are strictly unpaid, do you mean the controlling board (or leadership) or do you mean clergy and staff?


Everyone. It is solely based upon volunteer efforts.

Best Regards,

Jake


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NAKnight
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01 Jan 2013, 10:43 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
Non-church non-profits need to do a lot more paper work to prove their non-profit status. That's the reason for the IRS lawsuits.


Typically "Non-Church" non profits are public organizations and special interest groups. They have a political agenda.

Vexcalibur wrote:
This is the problem. Some of your churches are really businesses. For example, a dude wanting to sell his bookseller self-help compendion may spend all his time making feel good speeches and does more work than some teleevangelists out there.


So, tax the dude on his profits on the books and speeches that he sells, not the church itself.

Vexcalibur wrote:
If the church you interned is a real non-profit and not a business, then it would only be affected by my request in that you might need to do more paper work than usual (same as a non-church non-profit).


I understand your qualms but you are really barking up the wrong tree. You are willing to risk my personal experience as valid evidence, do you really want me to show you the Church's licenses to operate?

Vexcalibur wrote:
Your anecdote is worth 0 dollars. Your partial experience with one church of one xtian denomination does is not really proof that all Christian churches out there are so honest and have so unpaid people working there .


I interned for 6 months but I have more experience than you do. If you have something to add, say it. I'm open to learning.


Best Regards,

Jake


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visagrunt
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02 Jan 2013, 12:03 pm

ruveyn wrote:
Churches should pay tax on their property just like any other non-profit firm.

A certain amount of local resources must be allocated to proved fire services and police protection to church property. The churches should pay their share for the service rendered.

ruveyn


Um, isn't that what I said two paragraphs after you cut off my post in your quote?


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ruveyn
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02 Jan 2013, 12:29 pm

visagrunt wrote:
ruveyn wrote:
Churches should pay tax on their property just like any other non-profit firm.

A certain amount of local resources must be allocated to proved fire services and police protection to church property. The churches should pay their share for the service rendered.

ruveyn


Um, isn't that what I said two paragraphs after you cut off my post in your quote?


I didn't notice.

ruveyn



Vexcalibur
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02 Jan 2013, 2:06 pm

NAKnight wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
Non-church non-profits need to do a lot more paper work to prove their non-profit status. That's the reason for the IRS lawsuits.


Typically "Non-Church" non profits are public organizations and special interest groups. They have a political agenda.
You mean, like churches, right?

Quote:
So, tax the dude on his profits on the books and speeches that he sells, not the church itself.
There are various churches out there and some are composed of just the guy and his books.



Quote:
I understand your qualms but you are really barking up the wrong tree. You are willing to risk my personal experience as valid evidence
No.
Quote:
, do you really want me to show you the Church's licenses to operate?

..
I interned for 6 months but I have more experience than you do. If you have something to add, say it. I'm open to learning.
I don't care at all about your anecdotes.


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NAKnight
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02 Jan 2013, 4:48 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
You mean, like churches, right?


I mean, like ACLU, FFR, NPR, groups like that.

Vexcalibur wrote:
I don't care at all about your anecdotes


Then why did you care enough to respond to me at all?


Best Regards,

Jake


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Vexcalibur
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02 Jan 2013, 8:00 pm

You claimed the difference between secular non-profits and churches is that secular ones have a political agenda. Don't churches too?



Quote:
Then why did you care enough to respond to me at all?
So that you know that repeating it has no effect.


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NAKnight
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02 Jan 2013, 8:41 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
You claimed the difference between secular non-profits and churches is that secular ones have a political agenda. Don't churches too?


Why are you assuming every church has a political agenda?
Not all/every church that you see is the Westboro Baptist Church which I fear is the ammunition for your disagreement.
The "Reverend Al Sharpton's" of the world are not in any way affiliated with the normal day-to-day churches that I am mentioning.
The normal "Maw and Paw" "white church upon a hill" churches are solely ran upon a volunteer group of people based upon the financial offerings of it's congregation.
There is no need to punish the small churches for the irresponsibility of the few. I see it like that. I respect your view, but I choose to disagree with you.

Would it be fair for me to say that all secular non-profits organizations harbor rapists? Your assumption is not conclusive.

Vexcalibur wrote:
So that you know that repeating it has no effect.


That's a pointless non-sequitor. You haven't added anything to this discussion. Your ranting. Everyone understands your frustration


Best Regards,

Jake


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Vexcalibur
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02 Jan 2013, 8:58 pm

NAKnight wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
You claimed the difference between secular non-profits and churches is that secular ones have a political agenda. Don't churches too?


Why are you assuming every church has a political agenda?
Because they are churches.

I find organized religion and politics indistinguishable.


Quote:
Not all/every church that you see is the Westboro Baptist Church which I fear is the ammunition for your disagreement.

WBC *not* mentioned here: http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/11/0 ... 69009.html


Quote:
There is no need to punish the small churches for the irresponsibility of the few.
If they are legit non-profits then can go through the same standards as other non-profits, then this won't affect them.


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