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Jitro
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02 Jan 2013, 5:03 pm

Prolife people seem to think so.



TallyMan
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02 Jan 2013, 5:07 pm

No brain, so no mind, so no consciousness.


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Declension
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02 Jan 2013, 5:10 pm

Whatever consciousness is, we know that it is always associated with brains. So I guess the obvious conclusion is that a very young human has consciousness to the extent that it has a brain. And since the brain gradually becomes more complicated, I guess that consciousness gradually becomes more vivid. But at conception, there is nothing at all that consciousness could be associated with.



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02 Jan 2013, 5:17 pm

I wonder if pro-lifers have actually asked themselves that question. Perhaps they should. They just say "life", which is true, but even a nematode is life.


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02 Jan 2013, 5:23 pm

Consciousness is thought to begin at around the start of the third trimester. That's when brainwaves can be measured and the fetus begins reacting to stimuli. Of course that still doesn't answer the philosophical question of when personhood begins, which is what's usually argued about. No one really seems to consider if something can think and feel when deciding the morality of killing it painfully, only whether it can be considered a human being.


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02 Jan 2013, 5:35 pm

I'm pro life. I don't think outrageous, silly things, however I do believe in the sanctity of life. While a creature without a developed brain might not have consciousness, I believe the unborn child has a soul upon conception, as well as the right to continue living. Killing, no, murdering, with malice and aforethought, these helpless humans out of convenience is horrendously monstrous. I don't understand the basis for these murders in the first place, other than absolute wanton selfishness.


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TallyMan
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02 Jan 2013, 5:46 pm

unduki wrote:
I believe the unborn child has a soul upon conception.


If that is the case if the clump of fertilised cells divides into twins or triplets does the soul also divide? What about the rare cases where two non identical twins fuse together and form one individual - do the two souls merge into one soul? I don't think you've thought this through very deeply. There is no evidence for a soul anyway.


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Last edited by TallyMan on 02 Jan 2013, 6:12 pm, edited 1 time in total.

BlueAbyss
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02 Jan 2013, 6:08 pm

No, I don't think consciousness begins at conception. Looking back over my early memories, I think that consciousness was something that developed throughout my childhood. I remember being in a kind of fog during my early years - at the time of my earliest memories.

Maybe this is something Nature provides as a gift, because life is so fragile at first. Infant deaths used to be very common. I've heard theories, and seen evidence, that consciousness also dims just before death, perhaps another of Nature's gifts to help these two transitions into and out of life a bit easier.

At conception though? I know that we don't yet have a brain, a heart, a central nervous system, or anything else definable as a human being. At the instant of conception, cell division hasn't even really started - if one defines conception as the sperm entering the egg.

I think human life begins when the developing fetus is far enough along to survive outside the womb. Considering the survival rates of premature babies, that varies from person to person. Consciousness may begin at that point, as a glimmer of awareness, and there are rare people who remember their births, but for most of us it's something that develops over time.



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02 Jan 2013, 8:02 pm

Hardly anything begins at conception.


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NAKnight
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02 Jan 2013, 8:21 pm

TallyMan wrote:
There is no evidence for a soul anyway.


Your soul isn't in your body like a pea is in a pod. You cannot open yourself up and find the spot where your soul resides. Physical things reside in physical places. But immaterial things don’t need any space to fit into. If the soul is not physical, then it doesn't need a physical location.

Your soul is yourself, your mannerisms and your personality. As far as I know, you cannot empirically measure one's personality or behavior, does that mean that your soul does not exist? No. The effects of your personality and mannerisms are conclusive enough beyond reasonable doubt. If you focus primarily on what can be measured, yes, there is no empirical measurement that the "Soul" exist. I like to consider all sides of the issue, I have conviction that just because you cannot see it/measure it/ examine it, does not mean it's not there. You have to sometimes be willing to see things from different perspectives.


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Vexcalibur
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02 Jan 2013, 8:53 pm

Quote:
As far as I know, you cannot empirically measure one's personality or behavior, does that mean that your soul does not exist?
By Ocam's razor, that's exactly what it means.


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ruveyn
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02 Jan 2013, 9:27 pm

Jitro wrote:
Prolife people seem to think so.


Fetus has brainwaves before birth.

ruveyn



NAKnight
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02 Jan 2013, 9:36 pm

Vexcalibur wrote:
By Ocam's razor, that's exactly what it means.


Occam's razor is the most simplest reason and explanation for the event or cause is the most viable explanation.

Let's turn it on it's side, using Occam's razor, wouldn't it be detrimental to Atheism, because Atheism in and of itself is complex?
Would that violate the rules of Occam's razor?

Best Regards,

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John_Browning
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03 Jan 2013, 12:29 am

Aimless wrote:
I wonder if pro-lifers have actually asked themselves that question. Perhaps they should. They just say "life", which is true, but even a nematode is life.

Be careful taking it that far. The only logical end for that school of thought is that a chick wiping off a shot to the face could become regulated under abortion laws! :lol:


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JNathanK
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03 Jan 2013, 1:09 am

I think consciousness has no beginning nor end.



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03 Jan 2013, 1:28 am

NAKnight wrote:
Vexcalibur wrote:
By Ocam's razor, that's exactly what it means.


Occam's razor is the most simplest reason and explanation for the event or cause is the most viable explanation.

Let's turn it on it's side, using Occam's razor, wouldn't it be detrimental to Atheism, because Atheism in and of itself is complex?
Would that violate the rules of Occam's razor?

Best Regards,

Jake

Occam's razor (also written as Ockham's razor, Latin lex parsimoniae) is a principle of parsimony, economy, or succinctness. It states that among competing hypotheses, the one that makes the fewest assumptions should be selected.
Atheism has the fewist assumptions.


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