Questions of a curious Aspie: LBGT questions

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Rorberyllium
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09 Jan 2013, 11:11 am

"Sure Galileo's theories are outdated, but if you look at things from his perspective he'd say the Sun was the stationary center of the universe".



visagrunt
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09 Jan 2013, 2:20 pm

Caesaran wrote:
I am sorry if I offended you.


Thank you for that.

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I am hoping to become a psychologist and I have a tendency view certain concepts from a Freudian approach which transgenderism is one of those concepts that tend to pose the question in my mind "What would sigmund freud say about (insert topic here)"

My thoughts on what freud would say about transgenderism would be:

"These individuals who seek to become the opposite sex from their assigned gender, Seem to be envious of the opposite gender's role in society and fashioning the thought of themselves fitting that role without flaw or that role being easier than their gender's role in society but due to their gender, they would be shunned for attempting to fufill that role in a community. Culture is their opposition in their desires in fufilling the opposite sex's social roles; unfortunately, This causes confusion for the individual's identity in denying it's current physical form which can lead to certain irrational behaviors that could be self destructive." -Sigmund freud


One of the things that I was taught was to always remember, "You are not treating a disorder, you are treating a patient who presents a disorder. Never forget to put the patient first." So my first concern with a Freudian analysis of gender dysphoria is appears to put the analysis before the patient. Now, I grant you that we are restricted in that we don't a patient in front of us whose circumstances we can speak to directly. But when we speak generally about disorders, we should be careful not to presuppose that we can always discover some general 'truths' about people who present similar symptoms and then make therapeutic decisions about how to treat them.

The trans people that I know, and the cases that I have read about have not suggested to me that they would be easily categorized in such a way. The transwoman who identifies as female but fulfils a male social sex role runs counter to the notion of conflict arising from envy of women's social sex role as a etiology for her identification as female.

My next concern is that this analysis is structured in such as way as to normalize cultural opposition. Society believes that people born with penises should behave as men--as a factual observation, I will accept that. But when presented with a patient who identifies as female, if we (patient and therapist) begin from the presumption that society is correct in that belief, then our therapeutic focus will be on conforming the patient with society. But if the etiology of the patient's gender dysphoria is neurologically rooted, then why would we believe that this is the correct approach?

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My personal thoughts on a psychological perspective of transgenderism

"What purpose in a tribal structure do transgendered individuals fufill? Homosexuals fufill the purpose of Nannies, Babysitters, and adoptive parents for orphaned children; Homosexuality often helps prevent populations from rising any further than needed so it is required of a civilization to be accepting of these individuals' sexual preferences. Aspergians fufill the role of advisors, Spiritual leaders, Shamans, Pioneers, and Craftsmen for their tribe's own progress in order to recover from a substantial loss; These individuals are born during times of famine and drought so their innate cleverness as well as peculiar thinking help spawn new methods of sustaining the community at their own social costs. What purpose do these transgendered individuals fufill: Are they suppose to fufill the role of caregivers when they is a lack of them, Are they suppose to fufill the role of men and women when the population of either has decreased significantly? Their purpose is unknown..." -Caesaran


I have grave reservations about the tribal utility perspective. Tribal utility doesn't create homosexuality or Asperger's. These traits emerge as a result of neurology. And transgenderism is no different.

Tribal utility, the other hand, is the tribe, "playing the hand it has been dealt," suggesting that tribes will find the optimal fit between a person's skills and characteristics and necessary roles. But how many tribes have ever placed homosexuals in the role of surrogate parents? There are some exceptional cases, but by and large tribes have been intolerant of homosexuality and forced homosexuals to conform to conventional roles. And, frankly, I have no interest in being a surrogate parent. That is not the role that I see for myself in my tribe.

Which brings us back to the first point. The etiology is secondary to the individual.


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Caesaran
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10 Jan 2013, 3:16 pm

Well, They has to be some logical usage for any Peculiararities in individuals within in a population.

I would imagine how some of these peculiarities would operate a tribal structure:

Homosexuals - Babysitters while the parents are out working (Normally, a tribe lives in a concentrated area so childminding is easier if close by); Adoptive parents in some situations (What I have kinda noticed myself that some homosexual couples get baby envy after a period of time); Population control ( Well.... Homosexuals don't have their own biological children [unless via surrogate] (I kinda noticed that their is a lot more homosexual couples living in more urban areas, Is that normal?))

(Personal opinion: I think Homosexuals are very useful in a sense for several reasons: They help keep the population from skyrocketing and prevent the earth from getting overcrowded, They are a lot less hostile than heterosexuals [Sorry if that's a stereotype], They tend to spend a lot of money on nice things [Seriously, Why aren't we letting them get married, Biggest economy booster of all time, Do people realize how much money is dropped on a ceremonial wedding? At least over hundreds of thousands of dollars! Let them get married damit or Im calling shenanigans], They tend to have good health practices [Although this could be said about most hetero and homosexual couples, I am sure some male doesn't want their partner getting fat])

Bisexuals- Promote fertility (I dunno why I imagined this but I heard some wierd thing that a Bi person tend to have more sex than the average hetero person)

(personal opinion: 8) )

Aspergians- Shamans ( I remember reading this somewhere that the perfect job for an aspie in a tribe would be a shaman cause of idiosyncrasies as well as attention to detail in which certain scenarios could mean the difference between poisoning someone or getting them to have visions. Normally shamans lived away from the tribe so this kinda rings aspie cuz we are not people persons)

Neurotypicals - Drones and workers ( Sorry to any neurotypicals but I imagine you tend do a lot of the heavy lifting in a tribal structure like fighting and foraging)

(personal opinion: Meh...)

Transsexuals- ? Possible role-fillers ? (Err.... Dont know really on this one but I'd imagine a transgendered individual taking up a role normally reserved for a specific gender, I could imagine a trans individual filling that role nicely. Its always nice to have extra manpower in a section that is lacking.

(Personal opinion: :?: )



Caesaran
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10 Jan 2013, 3:28 pm

What I have seem to notice about transsexuals is that they tend be afraid of the social stigma of wanting to be Masculine/Feminine, Like a little buzzing in their heading irritating them that they are supposedly not allow to do. I understand that is a more neurotypical trait that I am unable to experience because I have the freedom of mind, unbound by social consequences, The only buzzing I get in my head is when I do something very evil (Can't really blow up megaton without my brain yelling at me to not do that, Either logic or concious is behind it though, most likely logic though so when I do something that is extremely illogical, my brain yells at me).

Honestly, sometimes brains better off androgynous as to avoid situations like wanting to be in a masculine/feminine role then being stigmatized for it.



Jinks
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10 Jan 2013, 6:03 pm

Hi Caesarian,

I can see that you do not intend any offence and I respect that you are genuinely seeking better understanding. That's a really positive thing. I also get the impression that you are an extremely logical person and you wish to understand transgenderism based upon logic and facts. That is a little difficult because, as others have pointed out, "transgender" is a term under which you will find a great amount of variance and no theory or logical argument will apply to everyone who falls under it.

As you are an autistic person, it may be helpful to compare autism and transgenderism. As someone who is both autistic and transgender, I can tell you that they are peculiarly similar phenomenon. Firstly - and interestingly - they appear to be related. There is a much higher incidence of transgenderism in the autistic population than in the neurotypical population, though you may already have noticed from this thread that there are quite a few trans people here! Secondly, no one knows the cause or of a cure, though from the available information both appear to have a physical neurological basis and originate prenatally (the limited scientific data available support this in both cases, and likewise in both cases, current theories suggest early hormonal influences are likely to be a factor). And of course, both present in a spectrum of severity. Thirdly, it is just as difficult to explain how it feels to be a transgender person to someone who is not transgendered as it is for an autistic person to explain to a neurotypical person what being autistic feels like. Without having had the experience, it appears to be something weird, illogical and nebulous, and the resulting behaviours make many "normal" people feel uncomfortable. Fourthly, the effects of the condition show up in as widely different ways as the symptoms of autism do, and as such, when dealing with transgenderism (and if you do become a psychologist, you will certainly come upon it in your professional life) the most important thing is to understand the person and their unique challenges, rather than overlay them with a set of pre-arranged assumptions or a pre-arranged system of treatment - just like with autism.

I'm not sure the tribal model is really helpful because it is very much open to personal opinion as to what is and isn't socially beneficial. However, based on that model, it may interest you to know that many tribal societies of the past revered transgender people (for example, Native Americans called them "two-spirit" and they were often spiritual or tribal leaders). Biologically, it appears there may be intellectual advantages to gender variance - numerous studies have demonstrated that homosexual people have a higher average IQ than the heterosexual population and transgender people have a higher average IQ than both. This might place trans people in the same evolutionary category as people with high-functioning autism, who also tend toward higher IQ and more unusual ideas. And in addition to this, everything you have stated about the possible evolutionary advantages of homosexual people in a social heirarchy would apply equally to transgender people, as well as gender-typical and neuro-typical people without the ability or desire to reproduce (population control, able to support reproducing families emotionally, economically or spiritually, and so on).

Transpeople are all very different, and if you are open to chatting with some you will discover the breadth of their views and experience. I am a female-to-male transgender person. I also have a great respect for my body and am uncomfortable with the idea of surgical intervention. These two things were challenging to make work with one another, but I found a way to transition which was comfortable and right for me (upon which I'm happy to elaborate if it is of interest). My motivation wasn't social - I never fitted into society very well as a female or a male, because I'm autistic! Additionally, if you believe that trans people transition because they perceive that the opposite sex has an easier or more enviable social role, it is worth pointing out that there is never a social advantage to transitioning because in all ways being a transsexual person is far more socially challenging and open to prejudice than being either biological gender. It would make no sense for someone to transition to gain any social advantage.

Either way, thank you for addressing your questions to the LGBT community, and I hope some of my lengthy post is of some help. :)



visagrunt
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11 Jan 2013, 3:41 pm

Caesaran wrote:
Well, They has to be some logical usage for any Peculiararities in individuals within in a population.


Has to be? I reject that notion. I support the idea that communities should find roles for atypical individuals (let's avoid terms like, "peculiarities," that could be misinterpreted as perjorative), but I see no basis to conclude that atypical presentations have an inherent utility.

If we are engaged in finding social utility for homosexuals and Aspies, then why are we not engaged in finding social utility for people who present destructive psychopathies? I don't gain any feeling of self-worth from the notion that my atypical traits are potentially useful to my community, and I don't think it is useful for any other person who is looking for their role in their community to be buttonholed into "Babysitter" as the utile gay career path.

Quote:
I would imagine how some of these peculiarities would operate a tribal structure:


You seem to be persisting in the notion that you can classify social roles by trait, but a look around you should demonstrate that this is not possible. I would suggest that the vast majority of gay men, lesbians, bisexuals and Aspies do not conform to the social roles that you suppose that we are best fitted for.

And at the end of the day, why should social utilitarianism be at all relevant to a clinical approach to mental health?


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Caesaran
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12 Jan 2013, 1:04 am

[qoute] You seem to be persisting in the notion that you can classify social roles by trait, but a look around you should demonstrate that this is not possible. I would suggest that the vast majority of gay men, lesbians, bisexuals and Aspies do not conform to the social roles that you suppose that we are best fitted for.

And at the end of the day, why should social utilitarianism be at all relevant to a clinical approach to mental health?[/quote]

If you examine my posts, you would notice a method of deducing so I could arrive at a suitable answer for myself. Imagine if you will, the "Tribal" structure as the outline to a jigsaw puzzle, Now imagine every individual as a piece to this puzzle: There are alot of pieces that fit together to make large sections of the puzzle, There is also a lot of other odd pieces that you do not understand where they go at the moment, As you proceed in putting together, you begin to slowly fit the odd pieces to their appropriate places, then once together, the desired image is finally complete.

To simply interpret: Everyone has their place in a community, it just requires some time for the individual who is putting the puzzle together to find the right spot for you, but if you decided to change that piece, you won't be able to fit in that puzzle at all.

Jinks helped explain the advantages to Pecularities (do not take offense this term, it means distinct quality of an individual), They are meant to be a positive influence on a community because Nature has willed it this way, I say why defy what Gaia creates perfectly because humans are perfectly imperfect, we must have our flaws, If we do not have our flaws, we are broken.

If I recall correctly, Asperger's syndrome is supposedly cause by pre-natal testerone, an androgen hormone, which supposedly creates a masculinized version of the human brain. I remember discussing a theory that this woman in chat i met (her username was Kaz87), She said something about spotted hyenas and androgens, It was kind of far out there in my opinion but essentially seemed it was based in logic. The theory was that the pre-natal androgens help create a more goal oriented individual as well as more goal oriented group also increasing the chances of a group's survival and prosperity.

In my view, Spotted hyenas have a lot less gender issues than other animals do, Mating for them would be like this for them "please get it done and over with".



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12 Jan 2013, 1:05 am

Disregard those that beat you from your true path!! !! You know your answer inside... you seek acceptance or some name to be... well, there really isn't in our primitive state.. we are still primitive. Call me a monkey that learned enough English to perceive this.. but no, no...
Freud was a sexist b***h. Times have changed. There are terms un-named. Us as a species tend to catergorize others.
You are you. Your partner loves you. Are you a man biologically? What should it matter if you feel you are a woman? Does that make her a lesbian? No..
only in the sense of generalization. Sadly, not many understand the process and are old fasioned. I have met someone who work with my mother who has a
transgender son turned daughter who is married to her daughter and she calls her the it or freak or something offensive... it's painful to deal with... no matter where the heck you stand, it is hard to say... because it is beyond labels! We are in a new age beyond labels... the old age has become the new age. We have to show the way. You are YOU, man, woman, or whatever! A soul to be cherished. An intelligence to behold and give us a new perspective of your experience of life. And that is what it is. Love. Love is the answer.


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visagrunt
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12 Jan 2013, 10:06 am

Caesaran wrote:
If you examine my posts, you would notice a method of deducing so I could arrive at a suitable answer for myself. Imagine if you will, the "Tribal" structure as the outline to a jigsaw puzzle, Now imagine every individual as a piece to this puzzle: There are alot of pieces that fit together to make large sections of the puzzle, There is also a lot of other odd pieces that you do not understand where they go at the moment, As you proceed in putting together, you begin to slowly fit the odd pieces to their appropriate places, then once together, the desired image is finally complete.


I notice no such thing.

What I notice is a method that perpetuates fallacies, and attempts to apply general traits to populations, where there is no evidentiary basis on which to do so. You claim to be trying to, "fit the odd pieces to thier appropriate places." That's wrong on a couple of levels.

First, you're not trying to fit individual pieces. You're treating all blue pieces as a category.
Second, it's not your place (nor a therapist's place) to fit pieces. It's a therapist's responsibility to enable individuals to find their own best fits.

Quote:
To simply interpret: Everyone has their place in a community, it just requires some time for the individual who is putting the puzzle together to find the right spot for you, but if you decided to change that piece, you won't be able to fit in that puzzle at all.


Utter nonsense. First, not everyone has a place. There are disorders so profound that they have the effect of permanently cutting an individual off from the community.

Second, you're positing that there is an individual who is putting the puzzle together. No such individual exists. You might be creating such a puzzle in your mind, but that puzzle is completely irrelevant to real people in the real world.

Third, you're putting the community ahead of the individual. What if I don't want the place in the community where my piece fits? What if I want a different role in the community? You seem to hold the view that the correct therapeutic approach is to make me content with my lot. I take the view that the correct therapeutic approach is to give me the tools so that I can adapt to the place that I want to be.

Quote:
Jinks helped explain the advantages to Pecularities (do not take offense this term, it means distinct quality of an individual), They are meant to be a positive influence on a community because Nature has willed it this way, I say why defy what Gaia creates perfectly because humans are perfectly imperfect, we must have our flaws, If we do not have our flaws, we are broken.


Do not tell me not to take offence. You may intend none, but when you cause offence where none was intended, the correct response is not to tell another individual, "don't take offence," the correct response is either to acknowledge your offensiveness and correct it, or to apologize for continuing to be offensive. You are free to use the word "peculiarity" if you wish--and I am free to tell you that the word is offensive.

As for "why defy what Gaia creates pefectly," you have yet to demonstrate that Gaia has created anything. If you are going to suggest that we must each conform ourselves to some higher authority (i.e. the way nature made us) then you must first demonstrate that authority exists, and that the authority is legitimate.

Quote:
If I recall correctly, Asperger's syndrome is supposedly cause by pre-natal testerone, an androgen hormone, which supposedly creates a masculinized version of the human brain. I remember discussing a theory that this woman in chat i met (her username was Kaz87), She said something about spotted hyenas and androgens, It was kind of far out there in my opinion but essentially seemed it was based in logic. The theory was that the pre-natal androgens help create a more goal oriented individual as well as more goal oriented group also increasing the chances of a group's survival and prosperity.


You recall incorectly. There is not one shred of clinical evidence to support this hypothesis.

Quote:
In my view, Spotted hyenas have a lot less gender issues than other animals do, Mating for them would be like this for them "please get it done and over with".


How does the former arise from the latter? How are spotted hyenas distinct from, say, feral cats? This all seems to me to be wildly speculative.


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Caesaran
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12 Jan 2013, 12:01 pm

Quote:
In my view, Spotted hyenas have a lot less gender issues than other animals do, Mating for them would be like this for them "please get it done and over with".


Quote:
How does the former arise from the latter? How are spotted hyenas distinct from, say, feral cats? This all seems to me to be wildly speculative.


Spotted Hyena Females have giant pseudo phallic clitorises and their the dominant ones in their society.