Illegal immigrants could be granted US amnesty within 8yrs

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Tyri0n
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20 Feb 2013, 1:05 am

Raptor wrote:
An illegal alien is still a criminal.
Giving them amnesty only invites more if the same.


1. No, they are not criminals.

2. Go ahead and deport 12 million people. It's just that easy.

3. Being born on the wrong side of the border does not make one less than a person.

4. Most of this thread is racist and, therefore, violates WP's terms of use.



Telekon
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20 Feb 2013, 1:13 am

Tyri0n wrote:
4. Most of this thread is racist and, therefore, violates WP's terms of use.


How so? Illegal immigrants are not a race.



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20 Feb 2013, 2:23 am

Raptor wrote:
An illegal alien is still a criminal.
Giving them amnesty only invites more if the same.

visagrunt wrote:
No, it doesn't. What attracts more of the same are jobs. If there are no jobs to be had, there are no "pull factors." Now, the interesting question will be whether policy change will be a one-off exercise to attempt to shift the existing population, but do nothing about ongoing needs, or whether someone will actually have the presence of mind to talk about creating a visa classification for workers in unskilled jobs. The best answer might be to reopen Chapter 16 of NAFTA.

What about all of them that are criminals and generally burdensome to us?


Tyri0n wrote:
4. Most of this thread is racist and, therefore, violates WP's terms of use.

So what are you waiting for?
Go tattle on us. :P


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20 Feb 2013, 6:05 am

Tyri0n wrote:
Raptor wrote:
An illegal alien is still a criminal.
Giving them amnesty only invites more if the same.


1. No, they are not criminals.

2. Go ahead and deport 12 million people. It's just that easy.

3. Being born on the wrong side of the border does not make one less than a person.

4. Most of this thread is racist and, therefore, violates WP's terms of use.

1. Yes they are criminals. They are called illegal aliens because they violated immigration laws.

2. It was for Eisenhower. An army deuce and a half truck showed up in the middle of the night, and the alien invaders were nowhere to be found by sunrise. It would be expensive in the short term, but we could do what we did with Cubans on rafts and put them in camps indefinitely until they can be deported or until another country takes them.

3. They are a person, but if they cross a border illegally they are a criminal.


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20 Feb 2013, 9:34 am

John_Browning wrote:
Tyri0n wrote:
Raptor wrote:
An illegal alien is still a criminal.
Giving them amnesty only invites more if the same.


1. No, they are not criminals.

2. Go ahead and deport 12 million people. It's just that easy.

3. Being born on the wrong side of the border does not make one less than a person.

4. Most of this thread is racist and, therefore, violates WP's terms of use.

1. Yes they are criminals. They are called illegal aliens because they violated immigration laws.

2. It was for Eisenhower. An army deuce and a half truck showed up in the middle of the night, and the alien invaders were nowhere to be found by sunrise. It would be expensive in the short term, but we could do what we did with Cubans on rafts and put them in camps indefinitely until they can be deported or until another country takes them.

3. They are a person, but if they cross a border illegally they are a criminal.
Hehe you forgot number 4 I clear this up though Its not about race it has nothing to do about race it has to do about people from another country entering a country without permission. Kind of like people breaking into your house and squating! Mexico is actually a multiracial nation!


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visagrunt
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20 Feb 2013, 11:29 am

Raptor wrote:
What about all of them that are criminals and generally burdensome to us?


Nothing in the creation of a visa category for unskilled workers would diminish the ability of the United States to punish people convicted of crime.

Once you have create a legal route into the country for as many of these people as business can demonstrate that it needs, then by all means, redirect your enforcement resources to the cases that merit enforcement and removal.


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20 Feb 2013, 11:46 am

visagrunt wrote:
And let's not forget the amount of consumer spending that 12,000,000 people contribute to the economy.


Contribute to the economy? I don't know if it is necessarily a situation where anyone benefits. Someone would have to do a cost analysis of whether or not that were so, taking into account the money that DOESN'T get put back into the economy by way of (1) taxes, (2) money being sent back to their home country, (3) benefits being obtained here funded by taxpayers (medical services to ER visits, welfare, etc.), (4) paying unemployment and government benefits to CITIZENS who can't get a job because the illegals are taking the jobs, (5) other unaccounted losses due to qualified professional people who SHOULD come to this country but CAN'T because we can't afford it due to illegals already being here.

Illegal is illegal and people who come here illegally shouldn't be rewarded in getting citizenship when there are other people who actually come here LEGALLY.



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20 Feb 2013, 12:06 pm

The people illegal immigrants piss off the most aren't Americans but the imigrants that worked their asses off getting here legally chinese japanese indians europeans canadians and yes even other Mexicans and other latino nationals!


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mikassyna
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20 Feb 2013, 12:44 pm

Also take into consideration that once the illegals are made into citizens, they will then like to bring their entire extended family over here as well, who will suck all our government benefits dry without putting a single penny back in.



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20 Feb 2013, 1:51 pm

mikassyna wrote:
visagrunt wrote:
And let's not forget the amount of consumer spending that 12,000,000 people contribute to the economy.


Contribute to the economy? I don't know if it is necessarily a situation where anyone benefits. Someone would have to do a cost analysis of whether or not that were so, taking into account the money that DOESN'T get put back into the economy by way of (1) taxes, (2) money being sent back to their home country, (3) benefits being obtained here funded by taxpayers (medical services to ER visits, welfare, etc.), (4) paying unemployment and government benefits to CITIZENS who can't get a job because the illegals are taking the jobs, (5) other unaccounted losses due to qualified professional people who SHOULD come to this country but CAN'T because we can't afford it due to illegals already being here.

Illegal is illegal and people who come here illegally shouldn't be rewarded in getting citizenship when there are other people who actually come here LEGALLY.


Can you not read? I wrote, "consumer spending." Let me repeat that, "consumer spending." Do you understand what that is? That is the purchase of goods and services by individuals within the domestic economy. 12,000,000 people need a lot of groceries. They have to pay rent on a lot of homes. Even on a very conservative estimate that undocumented workers' households spend only half the national average (and frankly, we have no reason to believe that the discount should be anywhere near this large), that still amounts to a substantial amount of economic activity.

As for your other aspects, bear in mind that tax DOES get put back into the economy. That's what government does--it collects money, and then it pays salaries to its own employees, provides direct transfers to eligible individuals, and procures goods and services of its own. Other than foreign spending (for example, US embassies abroad) every penny that government collects turns around and goes into the economy.

Remittances are an import drain, to be sure. But it's important to put that number in perspective. If remittances from the USA to Latin America total some $60 billion, that would represent a gross figure of $5,000 per undocument alien. However, you need to do some discounting, first, because some of those remittances are payments by American individuals to make purchases in Mexico (most often of real estate, but money laundering is also a significant element). When compared with consumer spending by undocumented aliens, remittances are a much smaller piece of the economic pie. It's also important to understand where that money goes once it reaches Latin America. Most of it finds its way back to the United States in the form of export sales. Foreign remittances introduce US dollars into the economies of these countries. Once they have been sold for local currency, the money supply then has US dollars with which to undertake import of US goods and services. If those remittances stopped, the price of US imports would escalate, and the United States would then be under increased price pressure.

As for publicly funded benefits, the only ones that I will concede there are education and emergency health services. I think you will be very hard pressed to demonstrate that consumption of public services by undocumented aliens exceeds tax remittances paid by undocumented workers. They payment of benefits to unemployed Americans is, of course, a relevant phenomenon, but only if you can demonstrate that in the absence of undocumented workers that those same jobs would still be available, and that US residents would actually take those up. Given the disparity of wages and working conditions, I do not think that you can make more than an intuitive case that these jobs would, in fact, be substantively transferrable to domestic workers.

The simple reality is that the domestic US economy is filling a need with these workers. The marketplace has spoken, and Congress has buried its head in the sand for decades, refusing to acknowledge the economic role played by this category of foreign workers. While there is no argument that their presence and their employment is outside the ambit of the law, there is an argument to be made that the law has failed to keep pace with the market. While that doesn't invalidate the law or justify their presence or their employment it does mitigate the moralistic argument.


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20 Feb 2013, 2:04 pm

Jacoby wrote:
This "leak" is just pandering to Hispanic voters and nothing more. It has 0 chance of becoming law.

Deportation for 12 million or however many people is unrealistic but people that enter the country illegally should not be given citizenship.

End the drug war, secure the border by bringing our troops home, don't provide services for illegals, end automatic birthright citizenship for those born by non-citizen parents that enter the country illegally. That would just put us on par with pretty much every other country on earth, what do you think would happen if you enter a place like Japan illegally?


Isn't the regulation of migration contrary to Libertarian dogma?

Fifteenth Amendment wrote:
All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside. No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any State deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


Why not just throw out the whole damned Constitution while you're at it?



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20 Feb 2013, 2:20 pm

AspieOtaku wrote:
Hehe you forgot number 4 I clear this up though Its not about race it has nothing to do about race it has to do about people from another country entering a country without permission. Kind of like people breaking into your house and squating! Mexico is actually a multiracial nation!

It was 3am here and I forgot that one. This thread is not only about Mexico.


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20 Feb 2013, 2:26 pm

We can mitigate the effects of population gain by subsidizing birth control for those already here. Also the emergency room benefits would cost less if undocumented workers would buy insurance.Also since all of these people pay payroll taxes stop deporting my social security.



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20 Feb 2013, 2:32 pm

Howbout annex all of Mexico clean out the corruption and make them naturalized citizens problem solved!


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20 Feb 2013, 2:35 pm

John_Browning wrote:
Tyri0n wrote:
Raptor wrote:
An illegal alien is still a criminal.
Giving them amnesty only invites more if the same.


1. No, they are not criminals.

2. Go ahead and deport 12 million people. It's just that easy.

3. Being born on the wrong side of the border does not make one less than a person.

4. Most of this thread is racist and, therefore, violates WP's terms of use.


1. Yes they are criminals. They are called illegal aliens because they violated immigration laws.
.

3. They are a person, but if they cross a border illegally they are a criminal.


This and no it's not racist to be against illegal immigration because as someone else said (I don't know how to post multiple quotes srry) illegal immigrant is not a racial group.